Why is Kirin not a Divine Jutsu?

xingi

Well-Known Member
What exactly is the difference between Shinjutsu and something like Gaara’s sand?
I'm not sure what people don't understand, it's pretty straightforward.


Ninjutsu requires handseals and concentration of chakra.

Shinjutsu doesn't.

Divine arts are "miracles" carried out as casually as breathing.

If Kirin could be executed by casually twitching a finger and nothing more then it would fall under the category of shinjutsu.

Code can open portals to literally anywhere in the planet and any dimension by simply swiping a finger.

No concentration, no hand seals, no chakra strain etc

It's not just about how impressive it is, but how such a feat is executed.
 

Black zetsu

Well-Known Member
Practically, nothing, from what we know right now. It seems like a redundant classification. Plenty of ninjutsu are similar to the shinjutsu we know of. Shinjutsu are just what Shibai/Otsutsuki call their techniques. Ninjutsu replicate "similar phenomena" as shinjutsu, so if they meet the no hand seals requirement, they're pretty much the same thing. I guess the ninjutsu might have to be of a sufficiently high level to be considered a "miracle" like shinjutsu. Some/most Mangekyo Sharingan dojutsu and Rinnegan dojutsu are like that.
I don't think so

Ninjutsu is different to senjutsu, and different to genjutsu.. etc in mechanism/ chakra signature

Shinjutsu, is probably just a jutsu like the one that Shinobi uses but created by unique chakra type too different to what we have seen so far
 

Callen

Well-Known Member
He controls it without handseals:maybe
what about the hand positions that they use(d) for concentrating their chakra. Notice that it and hand seals tend to be lumped together by Amado in chapter 75.





Overall, this chapter made me think of Fullmetal alchemist, their "god" is able to perform alchemy without drawing a transmutation circle, clapping his hands together, or even moving at all.
 

BlinkST

President, ClubRinne
Practically, nothing, from what we know right now. It seems like a redundant classification. Plenty of ninjutsu are similar to the shinjutsu we know of. Shinjutsu are just what Shibai/Otsutsuki call their techniques. Ninjutsu replicate "similar phenomena" as shinjutsu, so if they meet the no hand seals requirement, they're pretty much the same thing. I guess the ninjutsu might have to be of a sufficiently high level to be considered a "miracle" like shinjutsu. Some/most Mangekyo Sharingan dojutsu and Rinnegan dojutsu are like that.
I was just about to reply that Black Zetsu’s explanation doesn’t provide a sufficient difference to justify a whole new classification. Nagato and Hagoromo’s Chibaku Tensei are for example completely different in scale. It did not warrant a whole new classification.

what about the hand positions that they use(d) for concentrating their chakra. Notice that it and hand seals tend to be lumped together by Amado in chapter 75.





Overall, this chapter made me think of Fullmetal alchemist, their "god" is able to perform alchemy without drawing a transmutation circle, clapping his hands together, or even moving at all.

Even Momoshiki then would fit that description because he slapped the ground to perform Inukai Takeru-no-Mikoto.
 

Zef

Not to be confused with ZefST the Sasuke or Sarada fan
Tbh it was cooler when Rikudou was the peak. Maybe because of how it was written.
It's because Hagoromo was the peak for a very long time, but then Kishimoto and now Ghostwriter-kun are going "ackshually this other alien is stronger then the one before"
:dumbpepe


It's like how Kishi did the puppetmaster shit with the villains.


In terms of the strongest we went from Hagoromo to Kaguya to Kinshitty/Momoshitty to Isshitty and now to Shitbai.

It's so tiresome and unnecessary because at the end of the day Ikemoto is not going to do Shitbai justice with how he draws his fights.
:lmao

Momoshitty and Isshitty are supposedly stronger then Kaguya but you can only gleam that by the fact that Naruto & Sasuke are supposedly stronger then when they were teens.

The actual scale of these Boruto fights is inferior to anything in the War Arc. Shitbai could be a galaxy buster but the most you'll see is him putting a crack in a wall just like with the current "strongest"



But this is what happens when you leave your more grounded power scale to go the Dragon Ball route. Eventually all you get is hype statements, and "X beat Y so is therefore stronger then Z" instead of tangible feats.
:oldshrug
 

Kakashi Kirin

kakashi GOATED the sharingan.
Some JP readers are scared stiff of trashing Daemon in their posts because it might reflect back in real life :facepalm
the Japanese are a superstitious cowardly lot. We Americans already got busy on rule rule 34. I saw Damon or whatever they call the half pint sucking on Ada's tits while reflecting it forcefully into a pissed off Kawaki's mouth.
 

BlinkST

President, ClubRinne
I'm not sure what people don't understand, it's pretty straightforward.


Ninjutsu requires handseals and concentration of chakra.

Shinjutsu doesn't.

Divine arts are "miracles" carried out as casually as breathing.

If Kirin could be executed by casually twitching a finger and nothing more then it would fall under the category of shinjutsu.

Code can open portals to literally anywhere in the planet and any dimension by simply swiping a finger.

No concentration, no hand seals, no chakra strain etc

It's not just about how impressive it is, but how such a feat is executed.
Ninjutsu does not always require handseals, but I think you already know that.

My issue with this Johnny-come-lately stuff is in the number of ways that it breaks the existing lore.

Are we to believe that now the Ohtsutsuki didn’t even use chakra?



Because that would be false. Kaguya's Amenominaka that certainly looked effortless and was said to be godlike, does in fact require a boatload of chakra.



The Juubi by itself can fit into the description of Shibai’s power as some have already pointed-out. All the shit he did, the Juubi did, and we can explain the Juubi’s extreme power by saying it was due to having a planetary amount of chakra.

With the Ohtsutsuki everything has been ‘Devil Froot and lol alien technology’. No explanation as to what fuel source they’re using that allows them output power that surpasses what we know as the Narutoverse’s peak. It's like One Piece meets DBZ. FOH Kishimoto.

Even the chakra ‘roids that were clearly a callback to the Akimichi clan’s soldier pellets, got retconned in the manga where they are now Reese’s® Rare Candy bars for them to level-up.



The lazy writing here is remarkable: so you have your antagonist come to the planet to retrieve the scattered chakra of the Juubi, then it turns out he doesn’t need that chakra to transform. He could have just used his partner the whole time?



And he can STILL make more pills?

My further problem with the introduction of Shibai, is that ghostwriter-kun is trying to have another Rikudo Sennin figure of the Narutoverse, without doing the proper legwork to introduce him.



The exact same thing is being attempted to explain the origins of so-called “Shinjutsu”, only with less steps. We didn’t learn the Rikudo Sennin’s name until chapter 646 (Volume 67), and we didn’t see what he really looked like until chapter 670 (Volume 70).



No seriously. What the fuck is going on here? Have these guys ever heard of Rinne Tensei? The legendary forbidden ninjutsu that can bring people back to life?



All this shit would probably be amazing if we didn’t already have two Ohtsutsuki “gods” — Kaguya and Hagobromo — who still used ninjutsu and chakra, and there was nary a mention of "shinjutsu".



Apparently creating the moon and creating living things out of chakra does not count as “divine miracles”. What kind of foolishness is this?:catskully

Now you’re telling me there’s Ohtsutsuki and Tony Starku’s science projects that are beyond the two gods that were themselves already beyond humanity.

@Ganta
Word is bond, Kishimoto can kiss both my ass cheeks.
 
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xingi

Well-Known Member
Ninjutsu does not always require handseals, but I think you already know that.

My issue with this Johnny-come-lately stuff is in the number of ways that it breaks the existing lore.

Are we to believe that now the Ohtsutsuki didn’t even use chakra?



Because that would be false. Kaguya's Amenominaka that certainly looked effortless and was said to be godlike, does in fact require a boatload of chakra.

The only thing wrong with @Mapel post is that's there is no chakra strain. Otsusuki use chakra even up until isshiki that's always been the case and no where stated otherwise.
The lazy writing here is remarkable: so you have your antagonist come to the planet to retrieve the scattered chakra of the Juubi, then it turns out he doesn’t need that chakra to transform. He could have just used his partner the whole time?



And he can STILL make more pills?
? Entire bolded makes no sense. Why would he opt to use his partner (permanently killing him) outside of a last ditch option.

Also The pills are unique to momoshiki and he is simply converting chakra into pills. So why won't he be able to make more? The pills are not shinju fruit.
 

Zef

Not to be confused with ZefST the Sasuke or Sarada fan
Even the chakra ‘roids that were clearly a callback to the Akimichi clan’s soldier pellets, got retconned in the manga where they are now Reese’s® Rare Candy bars for them to level-up.



The lazy writing here is remarkable: so you have your antagonist come to the planet to retrieve the scattered chakra of the Juubi, then it turns out he doesn’t need that chakra to transform. He could have just used his partner the whole time?

You think that's bad? They had Urashitty eat his Rinnegan which made him stronger for some reason, lol



Sasuke should have done this
:reeee
 

Mapel

Well-Known Member
The only thing wrong with @Mapel post is that's there is no chakra strain. Otsusuki use chakra even up until isshiki that's always been the case and no where stated otherwise.
I wasn't trying to imply that Otsutsuki didn't use chakra, I was saying Code could essentially travel vast distances across space time without suffering any notable strain.

I should've worded it better but chakra expenditure is not the important part.

Ninjutsu does not always require handseals, but I think you already know that.

My issue with this Johnny-come-lately stuff is in the number of ways that it breaks the existing lore.

Are we to believe that now the Ohtsutsuki didn’t even use chakra?



Because that would be false. Kaguya's Amenominaka that certainly looked effortless and was said to be godlike, does in fact require a boatload of chakra.



The Juubi by itself can fit into the description of Shibai’s power as some have already pointed-out. All the shit he did, the Juubi did, and we can explain the Juubi’s extreme power by saying it was due to having a planetary amount of chakra.

With the Ohtsutsuki everything has been ‘Devil Froot and lol alien technology’. No explanation as to what fuel source they’re using that allows them output power that surpasses what we know as the Narutoverse’s peak. It's like One Piece meets DBZ. FOH Kishimoto.

Even the chakra ‘roids that were clearly a callback to the Akimichi clan’s soldier pellets, got retconned in the manga where they are now Reese’s® Rare Candy bars for them to level-up.



The lazy writing here is remarkable: so you have your antagonist come to the planet to retrieve the scattered chakra of the Juubi, then it turns out he doesn’t need that chakra to transform. He could have just used his partner the whole time?



And he can STILL make more pills?

My further problem with the introduction of Shibai, is that ghostwriter-kun is trying to have another Rikudo Sennin figure of the Narutoverse, without doing the proper legwork to introduce him.



The exact same thing is being attempted to explain the origins of so-called “Shinjutsu”, only with less steps. We didn’t learn the Rikudo Sennin’s name until chapter 646 (Volume 67), and we didn’t see what he really looked like until chapter 670 (Volume 70).



No seriously. What the fuck is going on here? Have these guys ever heard of Rinne Tensei? The legendary forbidden ninjutsu that can bring people back to life?



All this shit would probably be amazing if we didn’t already have two Ohtsutsuki “gods” — Kaguya and Hagobromo — who still used ninjutsu and chakra, and there was nary a mention of "shinjutsu".



Apparently creating the moon and creating living things out of chakra does not count as “divine miracles”. What kind of foolishness is this?:catskully

Now you’re telling me there’s Ohtsutsuki and Tony Starku’s science projects that are beyond the two gods that were themselves already beyond humanity.

@Ganta
Word is bond, Kishimoto can kiss both my ass cheeks.
Daemon can passively alter casualty in this sleep.

There is no Ninjutsu equivalent to that, same goes with the other examples of shinjutsu we were given.

The irony of everything is that when these abilities started getting introduced, the major complaint was:

"This abilities feel so broken and out of place in the Naruto universe"

Okay, the writer gives it a category of its own to set it apart from what we are normally used to, then the argument switches to.

"This ability is nothing special, we've already seen this in the Naruto universe"

Seems to me like the goal here is just to find something to complain about.:tlj
 

BlinkST

President, ClubRinne
I wasn't trying to imply that Otsutsuki didn't use chakra, I was saying Code could essentially travel vast distances across space time without suffering any notable strain.
So he
A) has vast amounts of chakra
B) is more efficient with how he converts chakra
C) does not use chakra

Which is it?

Daemon can passively alter casualty in this sleep.
He can do what now? :scoobyhuh

The irony of everything is that when these abilities started getting introduced, the major complaint was:

"This abilities feel so broken and out of place in the Naruto universe"

Okay, the writer gives it a category of its own to set it apart from what we are normally used to, then the argument switches to.

"This ability is nothing special, we've already seen this in the Naruto universe"

Seems to me like the goal here is just to find something to complain about.:tlj
The issue is that anything remotely “godlike” was capped at individuals who were either Jinchuriki or had planetary levels of chakra.
 

Mapel

Well-Known Member
So he
A) has vast amounts of chakra
B) is more efficient with how he converts chakra
C) does not use chakra

Which is it?
A)

But like I said, its not important.
He can do what now? :scoobyhuh
He rewrites reality to reflect any harmful outcome that might come upon him.

You think of killing him, and that scenario is reflected back on you.

What's more it's passive, so he doesn't need to be conscious for it to activate.

The issue is that anything remotely “godlike” was capped at individuals who were either Jinchuriki or had planetary levels of chakra.
It's a battle shounen, the power cap is always going to keep rising. :catshrug
 

BlinkST

President, ClubRinne
A)

But like I said, it’s not important.
No it is important. Didn’t you need massive amounts of chakra to enter someone else’s dimension?
He rewrites reality to reflect any harmful outcome that might come upon him.

You think of killing him, and that scenario is reflected back on you.

What's more it's passive, so he doesn't need to be conscious for it to activate.
You wrote casualty instead of causality so I was confused for a second :scoobyhuh
It's a battle shounen, the power cap is always going to keep rising. :catshrug
That’s cool. You just can’t break the lore along with it.
 

Csdabest

O.Y.D. Chris Styles
No it is important. Didn’t you need massive amounts of chakra to enter someone else’s dimension?

You wrote casualty instead of causality so I was confused for a second :scoobyhuh

That’s cool. You just can’t break the lore along with it.
Its reachin the levels of hey we use Harmon. Then Stands just popping out of nowhere changing power systems. Atleast Jo Jo did a complete overhaul. They just keep introducing new forms of Jutsu. Ninjutsu<Senjutsu<Sage Jutsu<Six Paths Sage Jutsu< Now Shinjutsu.

Its just never ending at this point unless they are going to lump in techniques form the old Series as Shinjutsu. Weather incomplete or just technically correct but on a human level.
 

Csdabest

O.Y.D. Chris Styles
It just means Code has insane chakra levels.


Introducing something new =\= breaking lore.
Or Perhaps the actual "Cyborg" part about them is a chakra generator. Similar to how Android 18 and 17 have unlimited Chakra vs how others could absorb chakra. Between Byakugo storing chakra I wouldn't put it past Amado to figure out a way to create tech for unlimited chakra batteries.
 

Csdabest

O.Y.D. Chris Styles
I wasn't trying to imply that Otsutsuki didn't use chakra, I was saying Code could essentially travel vast distances across space time without suffering any notable strain.

I should've worded it better but chakra expenditure is not the important part.


Daemon can passively alter casualty in this sleep.

There is no Ninjutsu equivalent to that, same goes with the other examples of shinjutsu we were given.

The irony of everything is that when these abilities started getting introduced, the major complaint was:

"This abilities feel so broken and out of place in the Naruto universe"

Okay, the writer gives it a category of its own to set it apart from what we are normally used to, then the argument switches to.

"This ability is nothing special, we've already seen this in the Naruto universe"

Seems to me like the goal here is just to find something to complain about.:tlj
Well Ninjutsu isnt the only Category for Chakra use. Genjutsu exist as well. So if their is God level Ninjutsu then there probably God level Genjutsu. Reflecting mental energies back onto a person. Think.....

Shinjutsu:Tsukiyomi......All the damage delt is real that the user thought of with there imagination. Part of Rikudou mythos was to turn imagination into reality. To breath life into creation with Yin and Yang Energies at their highest level.
 

Ganta

Not the Ganta from Narutobase. Stop Hollering PMs.
Ninjutsu does not always require handseals, but I think you already know that.

My issue with this Johnny-come-lately stuff is in the number of ways that it breaks the existing lore.

Are we to believe that now the Ohtsutsuki didn’t even use chakra?



Because that would be false. Kaguya's Amenominaka that certainly looked effortless and was said to be godlike, does in fact require a boatload of chakra.



The Juubi by itself can fit into the description of Shibai’s power as some have already pointed-out. All the shit he did, the Juubi did, and we can explain the Juubi’s extreme power by saying it was due to having a planetary amount of chakra.

With the Ohtsutsuki everything has been ‘Devil Froot and lol alien technology’. No explanation as to what fuel source they’re using that allows them output power that surpasses what we know as the Narutoverse’s peak. It's like One Piece meets DBZ. FOH Kishimoto.

Even the chakra ‘roids that were clearly a callback to the Akimichi clan’s soldier pellets, got retconned in the manga where they are now Reese’s® Rare Candy bars for them to level-up.



The lazy writing here is remarkable: so you have your antagonist come to the planet to retrieve the scattered chakra of the Juubi, then it turns out he doesn’t need that chakra to transform. He could have just used his partner the whole time?



And he can STILL make more pills?

My further problem with the introduction of Shibai, is that ghostwriter-kun is trying to have another Rikudo Sennin figure of the Narutoverse, without doing the proper legwork to introduce him.



The exact same thing is being attempted to explain the origins of so-called “Shinjutsu”, only with less steps. We didn’t learn the Rikudo Sennin’s name until chapter 646 (Volume 67), and we didn’t see what he really looked like until chapter 670 (Volume 70).



No seriously. What the fuck is going on here? Have these guys ever heard of Rinne Tensei? The legendary forbidden ninjutsu that can bring people back to life?



All this shit would probably be amazing if we didn’t already have two Ohtsutsuki “gods” — Kaguya and Hagobromo — who still used ninjutsu and chakra, and there was nary a mention of "shinjutsu".



Apparently creating the moon and creating living things out of chakra does not count as “divine miracles”. What kind of foolishness is this?:catskully

Now you’re telling me there’s Ohtsutsuki and Tony Starku’s science projects that are beyond the two gods that were themselves already beyond humanity.

@Ganta
Word is bond, Kishimoto can kiss both my ass cheeks.
Assuming your readers are stupid is just plain stupid. It's a pattern with DC comics too, especially there one-shot issues with BATMAN.

Daemon can passively alter casualty in this sleep.
I'd be hesitant to call it passive. It's a jutsu that permanently puts Daemon in Reflect status, as long as he is touching another person. That's why he gets grabby.
 

BlinkST

President, ClubRinne
Assuming your readers are stupid is just plain stupid. It's a pattern with DC comics too, especially there one-shot issues with BATMAN.
Sounds to me like Kishimoto was asleep at the wheel while Ikemoto and Kodachi ran wild.

I spent the better part of the night perusing through this manga like a raccoon through a dumpster because I thought I taw a putty tat.

He has a karma that grants him pure power from an Otsutsuki.



Were that the case, Momoshiki wouldn't need to steal some of Naruto's chakra, nor would Isshiki need to steal the Juubi's chakra.
 
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