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which captain had the best swordsmanship?

Zeit

★★★★★
True, but his abilities still require him to fight with a sword, Byakuya just stands around most of the time. Not to mention that even without any Shikai ability he did better against Robert than most Shinigami against their respective Quincy.

True, I wouldn't be shocked if due to their age difference (Shunsui is at least several hundred years old) Shunsui had had more time to polish his swordsmanship comparatively but I mean Byakuya's strongest Bankai form is a single blade and we saw him use a single blade in Gokei as well against Ichigo in SS so I wouldn't count him out entirely.
 

WorldsStrongest

Man of Miracles

I would've sworn that shit said Croatian or some shit :krilldead



Even including them it's Ichibē or Nimaiya.

Soul Society only it's EOS Zaraki.
Kenpachi being the strongest with a sword =\= most skilled at swordsmanship

Dude has legit 1 kendo lesson to his name and uses his Zan like a meat cleaver which is fitting as that’s exactly what it’s released state is
 

Sablés

Well-Known Member
Kenpachi being the strongest with a sword =\= most skilled at swordsmanship
This feels like a highly selective you brought on yourself.
Swordsmanship = How good you are with the sword.
Skill = Your aptitude in a particular field.
These things are saying the same thing. Even if you made it about a subset definition of skill, it's silly to repeat it twice as you just did.
Kenpachi being the strongest with a sword, means he's better than Unohana.

OP did not ask for the swordsman with the greatest technical skill. He asked for the best swordsman/one with the best swordsmanship.
 

WorldsStrongest

Man of Miracles
Swordsmanship = How good you are with the sword.
Skill = Your aptitude in a particular field.
These things are saying the same thing.
Reiterating seemed necessary considering how many people are ignoring the definition of swordsmanship here to assert Kenpachi is the best at it :oldshrug
OP did not ask for the swordsman with the greatest technical skill.
He did actually

By definition

Not to be an ass about it but the literal textbook definition of the word “swordsmanship” = swordplay

And the literal definition of “swordplay” = the art or skill of wielding a (especially in fencing)

So…Yes

The question is asking about skill

Of which kenpachi has literally none

He has pretty good combat instinct as shown in his fight with Tosen way back but he doesnt have any real martial skill.

Asserting Kenpachi is the greatest swordsman because his raw power in it is the best is like saying Superman is a better engineer than Tony Stark because superman can swing a hammer harder.
 

Sablés

Well-Known Member
The question is asking about skill
skill
/skil/


noun
noun: skill
  1. the ability to do something well; expertise.

Not seeing anything here about needing to master 8000 styles or tapdance with a sword in your mouth.
It's just how good you are at something. In this case, with the sword. Kenpachi is better/stronger than Unohana in the sword.

Which is why I said "skilled in swordsmanship" is silly in its redundancy. You are confusing "skill" with "technique". Technique focuses more on methods. Skill is nebulously about competence, unless specified. :mlpshrug


Asserting Kenpachi is the greatest swordsman because his raw power in it is the best is like saying Superman is a better engineer than Tony Stark because superman can swing a hammer harder.
Is the objective of an engineer to swing a big hammer? Don't think so.

Just like I explained to cap over there, using these analogies almost always opens you up to a false equivalence, because there's no need to bring up anything else in regards to the principles of sword skill.
 

WorldsStrongest

Man of Miracles
Not seeing anything here about needing to master 8000 styles or tapdance with a sword in your mouth.
expertise noun

ex·per·tise

Definition of expertise​


1: the skill of an expert
Thats not raw power regardless of having any tap dancing anywhere near your mouth bud



Kenpachi is better/stronger than Unohana in the sword.
Hes stronger

Not better with a sword

He wins solely due to raw power not technical ability
Is the objective of an engineer to swing a big hammer?
Dont get semantic (more than we already are) if you can help it

Better example then

Asserting Kenpachi is a better swordsmanis like asserting Superman is a more skilled fighter over Batman solely because he punches harder. Or a gorilla is a more skilled fighter than GSP because it would eat him in a fight.

Its just asinine
 

Sablés

Well-Known Member
Thats not raw power regardless of having any tap dancing anywhere near your mouth bud
going right back in circles.

Skill is about competence. It's entirely arbitrary and doesn't mean a million martial arts. You can have as much technique in the world. If you lose to ooga booga swordsman, you're the weaker swordsman. The point of the sword, is to win with the sword. You think the characters in-story are going to have judges watching their bouts and analyzing who has the better technique? You think Unohana thinks she's better at the sword than Kenpachi when he steamrolls her? She couldn't even use some of those precious moves in their first fight because he pressured too hard. It's not like Kenpachi isn't even a "skilled" fighter from the onset. He's racked up tons of experience over the course of centuries.
Not better with a sword
You presume being "better" with the sword, excludes strength.
Better is also a nebulous terminology btw.

more excellently or effectively.
This entire argument is semantics based on how you define skill. OP didn't give a definition so I'm going with how skill is most broadly defined: Aptitude.
Asserting Kenpachi is a better swordsmanis like asserting Superman is a more skilled fighter over Batman solely because he punches harder. Or a gorilla is a more skilled fighter than GSP because it would eat him in a fight.
Superman would be stronger, tougher, and faster. Why wouldn't he be the more skilled fighter? Did you assume that skill doesn't factor in stats? :what

Even if we were arguing the basis of technique. Techniques can only be properly executed because the physicals are there in the first place. You're in favor of Unohana using an elaborate definition of skill. That is not the only way you define skill. It's not even the usual way of defining skill.
 

Mar55

The Darkness Rises
Kenpachi being the strongest with a sword =\= most skilled at swordsmanship
Kenpachi is informally skilled from combat, that doesn't mean he isn't skilled at all. Just the opposite, in fact, as his combat skills always have special emphasis placed on them.
 

Capa13

Well-Known Member
The fact that you have to employ some random analogy instead of using swordfighting outright suggests a false equivalence. Because the goals or both and the rules of both aren't the same.

Swordfighting is about who is stronger with the blade. Unohana can master all the styles she wants. In the end, her competence with the sword was lesser than Zaraki's overall. That's why she lost. Sucks but that's the truth. You're free to cope otherwise though.
You don’t like the analogy because it shows how braindead the idea of outcome depicting overall talent is.
 

Sablés

Well-Known Member
You don’t like the analogy because
It's completely irrelevant. Totally different field with different objectives, therefore stupid when you already have a perfectly working one that is actually pertinent to the discussion. :oldshrug
 

Capa13

Well-Known Member
It's completely irrelevant. Totally different field with different objectives, therefore stupid when you already have a perfectly working one that is actually pertinent to the discussion. :oldshrug
Unohana has spent 1000 years mastering sword fighting. Kenpachi is a better sword fighter though because he “BiG sTrOnG aNd bIg ReIaTsU gUy! KeNpaChi HaVe BiG StRenGTh sO hE KiLl UnoHaNa JUSt BeCaUSe hE mOrE pOwErFUl bUt hE wIn So He BeTtEr SwOrDfIgHteR”. Use whatever cringe garbage logic you want but talent with the sword has nothing to do with outcome of sword fights. You can be a superior swordsman in every aspect and still lose to somebody in a sword fight who is just simply overwhelmingly powerful.
 

Sablés

Well-Known Member
Unohana has spent 1000 years mastering sword fighting.
Kenpachi has literally been fighting for that same amount of time. :sag

Look, man. If you want to talk about Unohana being a technically better fighter, as in that she has a more extensive library and practised way of fighting, go right ahead. But that does not make her the better swordsman unless you choose to employ that specific definition. Like damn, this ain't hard.
 

HiroshiSenju

Hiroshi Senju
Can’t believe I’m being called upon to defend Zaraki of all people. Going to be pretty unstructured here:

Just because Kenpachi doesn’t seem to fight with as much finesse as other characters doesn’t mean he’s unskilled. This man eats, sleeps, and breathes sword fighting; it’s literally all he cares about.

Formal training is no substitute for actual skill on the battlefield, and Kenpachi has proven he has the aptitude and experience to more than make up for any lack of the former.

Also, an inferior or unskilled swordsman, no matter your definition, isn’t going to be trading blows with and parrying strikes from the master of a thousand styles herself, Unohana. And he certainly isn’t going to leave Unohana, after a long test of skill, exclaiming that she’s finally found someone worthy of her title.

What even makes people put the likes of Shunsui and Hitsugaya above EOS Kenpachi in the first place? I abhor Kenpachi wank, but this is not the way.
 
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