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Was Tobirama wrong about the Uchiha?

Corvida

Anda de dia la noche es mia
And Obito rejected all of that until he saw Rin die. Because that's the trigger which in turn lines up with what Tobirama says. Just as how Itachi being the trigger for Sasuke's complete insanity
you traumatize and mind torture a seven years old

OH BAD UCHIHA

even said victim having to be, literally, curse sealed and mindraped again to be put on track
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
what separate discussion?

Tobirama was all wrong and he betrayed what his brother had tried to achieve creating the leaf
Like the Uchiha rightly concluding Madara was insane doesn't actually change anything. The idea wasn't that Tobirama assumed that the Uchiha were maliciously plotting his downfall. It was that when certain events were triggered that they couldn't help themselves. He didn't think a kid like Obito was directly conspiring against him, but that when his not girlfriend died he'd completely fly off the handle.
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
To an extent.
I mean Shisui/Kagami/Fugaku were all good lads.
Eh that's really debatable. Fugaku has more in common with the mad Uchiha's than the sensible ones. In any case one who sees a world war as an acceptable cost of getting what he wants can't really be a good lad.
 

Corvida

Anda de dia la noche es mia
Like the Uchiha rightly concluding Madara was insane doesn't actually change anything.

it does

they rejected him

The idea wasn't that Tobirama assumed that the Uchiha were maliciously plotting his downfall.
No

the idea was that Bigot had an enormous Madara induced trauma and that created his phobia
It was that when certain events were triggered that they couldn't help themselves.

And the bigot didnt notice that after a war, the Uchiha agreed to craete Konoha and were so desirous of peace that they rejected Madara

Even knowing that most of the young male population able to develop sharingan-and not all Uchiha do-obviosly had big losses in the war
as big as Madara a nd Bigot himself suffered
He didn't think a kid like Obito was directly conspiring against him,

a kid that had awakened sharinggan literally protecting his team mates
but that when his not girlfriend died he'd completely fly off the handle.
shocking

kids go crazy when you carefully traumatize them

thats goes perfectly in line with Haku´s words

His reaction to Itachi's death and motives. That's what caused him to go insane.
what caused him to go insane was being lied to all his life
Itachi literally came back from the dea and lilbro suddently stops being insane
odd


Eh that's really debatable. Fugaku has more in common with the mad Uchiha's than the sensible ones. In any case one who sees a world war as an acceptable cost of getting what he wants can't really be a good lad.


surprise plot and bloodless coup say hi
 
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Final Fantasy

“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe” XD
And Obito rejected all of that until he saw Rin die. Because that's the trigger which in turn lines up with what Tobirama says. Just as how Itachi being the trigger for Sasuke's complete insanity lines up too.
Obito says himself that the reason he's doing the whole Eye of The Moon Plan isn't Rin. It's not like he would have turned out the way he did without Madara. Madara is key in Obito's transformation.
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
Obito says himself that the reason he's doing the whole Eye of The Moon Plan isn't Rin. It's not like he would have turned out the way he did without Madara.
He says that yeah. There's just no reason to believe him when all he says and does eventually comes back to Rin. The trigger to his insanity was Rin's death, his disgust to the world is a rejection of the world that let Rin dies, his own dream world is one where he gets Rin back and subjugating the entire world conveniently all but erases the world that let her die.
 

Final Fantasy

“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe” XD
He says that yeah. There's just no reason to believe him when all he says and does eventually comes back to Rin. The trigger to his insanity was Rin's death, his disgust to the world is a rejection of the world that let Rin dies, his own dream world is one where he gets Rin back and subjugating the entire world conveniently all but erases the world that let her die.
Rin's death is especially important, because for Obito, it confirms Madara is right about the world being extra crappy. However let's not overstate Rin's importance here, more important than Rin herself, is what her death symbolizes to Obito. Madara himself says that he manipulated Obito into being what he wanted him to be.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Statement?

Read what Orochimaru said about it.

Yes it was first a rumor / suspicion

Cool, and nothing suggests it changed.

but then became fact when he actually studied the Sharingan awakening process

Proof?

No also the Uchiha members that wanted the coup

Which was not all Uchiha.

and to exterminate Konoha people

Never, ever stated to be a motive.

Fugaku even outright states his desire for a bloodless coup IIRC.

Why you lying?

Anyway Uchiha were always the big bads (and often times manipulating other big bads for their goals)

Three Uchihas out of a much bigger number, and three crazy OP Uchihas.

That's true i guess.

But all his decisions were in good faith.

But you are right some were dumb even if in good faith, guess he too wasn't completely immune to the crazy chakra :catsleep

Or maybe this "crazy chakra" thing is nonsense and Itachi went the way he did because he was traumatized since childhood by seeing conflict and then having the likes of Danzo manipulate him :catsleep
 

Raiha

Well-Known Member
He was biased as hell (hard not to when it is the clan that killed his brothers) but by acting the way he did, he forced them into the outcome he suspected, thus justifying his actions before himself.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
No. He doesn't. Never does Orochimaru say that his own Uchiha research produced vastly different results. Never does he try to argue that Uchiha's aren't uniquely likely to go insane. He just doesn't do it

The irony of this statement is that Oro who actually DID do research on the Uchiha never backs this argument up.

The most you can argue is that Oro neither supports it nor opposes it.

And that does nothing for you.

If it has no factual basis then having the man who knows everything and is a big Uchiha fan in the room would be the ideal time to point that out. That's not what happened though

Orochimaru was as surprised to hear it, in fact, so you can argue he didn't "know".

Except that's exactly what happened. The result of an Uchiha loving too much and this love being threatened or yanked away always seems to end in extreme violence and mostly in plots to subjugate the entire world too.

Uchiha have been losing friends and family all the time, yet many even during the Warring States Era acted rationally and hardly different from the Senju. We never hear of Uchiha running around causing problems in Konoha in spite of multiple world wars where they would have fought and lost loved ones or faced trauma.

Sounds like Tobirama is full of trash.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
He was biased as hell (hard not to when it is the clan that killed his brothers) but by acting the way he did, he forced them into the outcome he suspected, thus justifying his actions before himself.

This, to a degree.

The Uchiha were not forced, some of them chose to act that way while many others (if not most others) remained innocent and oblivious.
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
The irony of this statement is that Oro who actually DID do research on the Uchiha never backs this argument up.

The most you can argue is that Oro neither supports it nor opposes it.

And that does nothing for you.
But silence speaks volumes. If you hear information and don't counter it then this does not at all imply opposition. If the situation was supposed to be ambiguous then Orochimaru didn't have to agree, he had to disagree for it to be ambiguous.

Orochimaru was as surprised to hear it, in fact, so you can argue he didn't "know".
He's the man who knows everything and an expert biologist to boot. Him just standing there with his mouth agape isn't really fitting. Nor is he depicted as too shocked to speak.

Uchiha have been losing friends and family all the time, yet many even during the Warring States Era acted rationally and hardly different from the Senju. We never hear of Uchiha running around causing problems in Konoha in spite of multiple world wars where they would have fought and lost loved ones or faced trauma.
And yet all the Uchiha the story choses to focus on respond in this way. I don't think appeals to random Uchiha's and what might have been are very useful. Maybe somewhere there's an Inuzuka who's allergic to dogs.

Never, ever stated to be a motive.

Fugaku even outright states his desire for a bloodless coup IIRC.

Why you lying?
That's ultimately meaningless. It doesn't matter what he wants. Be even starting a coup he risks bloodsheds and a civil war. And that the elders are already aware already implies that the chance for a bloodless coup has long since passed.

The coup wouldn't have been bloodless and due to even attempting it in the first place Fugaku has accepted that outcome.
 

Van Basten

Black Lives Matter
Tobirama was obviously right. The lore and series basically vindicated his suspicions.

Sasuke reforming himself doesn’t really change that.
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
Are the only affected ones from a full clan

two Indra transmigrants, a kid traumatized the same way Nagato was and wait

Saint Itachi of the Leaf, parricide and genocidal tool.
but the angel of martyrdom
So we're all in agreement that the aburama all secretly hate bugs and that every Aburama we see using bugs are just outliers. We can also assume that Choji's entire clan is full of skinny vegetarians and that he, his dad and his daughter are just weird exceptions. And the Inuzuka clan is actually a clan focused around CATS.

If 75% of the clan's representation is completely insane then this is likely supposed to mean something.
 

Raiha

Well-Known Member
This, to a degree.

The Uchiha were not forced, some of them chose to act that way while many others (if not most others) remained innocent and oblivious.
Hard to say as we saw only Madara from that time and the others of his clan were so far into the background that if they did not have the clan crest on their back, you would think they just stumbled there. In addition, things went the route of "The wet burns alongside the dry". Tobirama did not visit the clan with a quiz to see who is good/bad/neutral but decided to play it safe.
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
no

specially never mix clan jutsus with blood limits
Yes.

Like it or not the main characters of the clans are the representatives of that clan and we shouldn't assume wildly different rules apply to people who don't represent the clan.

nothing at all

2 tranmigrants loons and a kid from 100 years of history dont represent shit
Except it does if those are 75% of the Uchiha representation and some outside those also carry the same problems in less severe degrees.
 

Corvida

Anda de dia la noche es mia
No
Like it or not the main characters of the clans are the representatives of that clan

No

Indra tranmigrants only represent themselves



and we shouldn't assume wildly different rules apply to people who don't represent the clan.

thats is the 99.99 percent of the clan



Hey

I repezent the flockz!
Except it does

doesnt
if those are 75% of the Uchiha representation

they are two indra transmigrants representing themselves
and some outside

Obito

as carefully worked on as Nagato


But Nagato repesents all Uzumaki
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
But Nagato repesents all Uzumaki
That statement just represent you don't get out this works.

Nagato's the outlier. He's the only main Uzumaki who's evil or even insane. So saying he represents the Uzumaki is weird. Naruto, Kushina and even Karin are more or less normal people and then there's one quirky relative who wants to take over the world.
But with the Uchiha the outlier is the only one who isn't insane. Sasuke, Obito and Madara are all barking mad and then there's only one quirky family member who isn't.

See how it works?
 

Corvida

Anda de dia la noche es mia
That statement just represent you don't get out this works.

Sure sure
Nagato's the outlier. He's the only main Uzumaki who's evil or even insane. So saying he represents the Uzumaki is weird.

No more werid that you-and Bigot-pretending that transmigrants like Madara and Sasuke are Uchiha representative
Naruto, Kushina and even Karin are more or less normal people and then there's one quirky relative who wants to take over the world.
But with the Uchiha the outlier is the only one who isn't insane.

OMG
No, there are two!

in 100 years of history

THE HORROAR

POSSESED BY EVULZ

KILL THEM ALL


Sasuke, and Madara are all barking mad
two faces same tranmigrant coins

and then there's only one quirky family member who isn't.
you know the actual size of a clan that contained a full gueto?





Little tv on the wall

whos the craziest of them all?


wait never mind




OH i KNOW



my mum!!!!
See how it works?
it doesnt work like that
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
No more werid that you-and Bigot-pretending that transmigrants like Madara and Sasuke are Uchiha representative
Simple. Because Sasuke and Madara don't seem any different then Obito. Its showcased in both the transmigrants and the sweet boy helping grannies cross the street. Between Tobi, Fugaku and Madara there's just no real reason for us to assume the transmigrants are somehow unique in this regard .

OMG
No, there are two!
Three. In a cast of four. 75%. That's not a good look.
 

Corvida

Anda de dia la noche es mia

No

Never simple
. Because Sasuke and Madara don't seem any different then Obito.

oh but they are


Its showcased in both the transmigrants and the sweet boy helping grannies cross the street. Between Tobi, Fugaku and Madara there's just no real reason for us to assume the transmigrants are somehow unique in this regard .

oh. but they are
That what made them final antagonists for hero and hero `prototype

and even the last transmigrant could be converted


Same as Fugaku developed MS but hid it to avoid bloodshed
Same as Mikoto mrs Cookie seller and her broom of doom, Izumi , Kagami, Sishui, Fugaku...-there is not an Uchiha same to any other
Three. In a cast of
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
oh. but they are
That what made them final antagonists for hero and hero `prototype
Nope. Its never stated or eluded to that transmigrants were the only Uchiha's so uniquely vulnerable to insanity. We might as have have scrapped Obito's entire backstory had this been the case.

Sasuke didn't suddenly get possessed by Ninja Cain due to jealousy about Ninja Abel. He went insane through the same process we see in Obito and has been explained in detail.

Same as Fugaku developed MS but hid it to avoid bloodshed
And then he perceived as what he loved to be under threat and decided extreme bloodshed was a very acceptable way of striking back. At the end he's been corrupted to at least some degree though to his credit he doesn't seem barking mad like the others. So he's a bit more of a murky case though certainly not an example of a good and mentally sound Uchiha.

I'm not even going into the same discussion about the same picture. We've sung that song, we've danced that dance. You know as well as I that they are not the representatives of the Uchiha clan just as any Akimutsu vaguely seen in the background is not their representative like Choji and Chocho are.
 

Corvida

Anda de dia la noche es mia
Nope. Its never stated or eluded to that transmigrants were the only Uchiha's so uniquely vulnerable to insanity.

The tranmigrant-particularlt one tranmigrant-was the cause of Bigot´s trauma and fear

Only one of the two, concretely

Bigot simple dehumanized and classified as danger a whole group of people

becasue cursed by evil

al of them


We might as have have scrapped Obito's entire backstory had this been the case.

And you know why Obito story wasnt scrapped

Or have you forgot why obito woke his eye in the first place?



Sasuke didn't suddenly get possessed by Ninja Cain due to jealousy about Ninja Abel.

oh but he was

Much to Kishimoto oversimplistic blame, Sasuke is FATED to get posssed by Ninja Cain

As a matter of fact he had already came back to sanity by the own brother that had traumatized him and only ketop his role as antagonist ebcasue

OMG BROTHER FEUD
He went insane through the same process we see in Obito and has been explained in detail.

No

He went insame through the odd fact of being lied to his whole life

Not like Obito
And then he perceived as what he loved to be under threat and decided extreme bloodshed was a very acceptable way of striking back.

All the contrary

He refused to make his clan know how easily he could become a bloody dictator

But he shoud it to Itachi


At the end he's been corrupted to at least some degree though to his credit he doesn't seem barking mad like the others

he was an idiot but not mad

same as Mikoto the other one who let herself be buchered by her precios parricide
. So he's a bit more of a murky case though certainly not an example of a good and mentally sound Uchiha.

hes a good case of a leader cornered in times of isolation and ill will
I'm not even going into the same discussion about the same picture. We've sung that song, we've danced that dance. You know as well as I that they are not the representatives of the Uchiha clan j

No, they are not

THEY ARE THE UCHIHA CLAN
ALL OF THEM

the resentful polic forces, the civilans, the grannies and the murdered children

reading Saint Itacho of the Leaf murdering entire families is a blast

Izumi´s moms death is pure comedy gold
 
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