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Was Tobirama wrong about the Uchiha?

Final Fantasy

“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe” XD
I'm of the opinion that Tobirama was probably wrong about the Uchiha having a predisposition to extremely strong emotions. During his era, the Uchiha were likely cultivating their emotions so they could get MS and become stronger, like Sasuke did with his hatred towards Itachi. Notice that before the advent of Madara and Izuna, the Uchiha never gained MS, which would likely mean they didn't have those extremely strong emotions before than. After Madara gained MS, MS start showing up more often.
 

Captain Quincy

Hitokiri Magician
They definitely had a predisposition towards strong emotions, but I think Tobirama was wrong for grouping all Uchiha together.

They were people that were different from each other just like the rest of the human race.
 

Starzenith

Active Member
I don't think he was wrong, he was right about having a strong predisposition to emotions. But Tobirama clouded by this judgement didn't realize that what he was doing was giving rise to even stronger emotion and not of the positive type.
 

blk

Well-Known Member
According to canon Tobirama was correct.


He studied the Uchiha's development of the Sharingan scientifically and found out how it awakened.

I.e via strong emotions that unlocked strong chakra (derived from Indra) that messed up their brain even further.


Tobirama not only had scientific evidence but also historical / anecdotal evidence, seeing how all the biggest crazies & bad guys were Uchiha (with few notable exceptions like Itachi, but considering it's probably his extreme intelligence that allowed him to keep self control and resist Uchiha cursed chakra, that's not a feat most Uchiha would be able to replicate).
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
I don't think he was wrong simply because the plot never brings up the possibility he was wrong. The information he provides is never countered by new information and no one regardless of how qualified they are to talk about it even tries to dispute it. It also lines up very neatly with what we get to see for ourselves.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
According to canon Tobirama was correct

According to canon Tobirama was incorrect.

He studied the Uchiha's development of the Sharingan scientifically and found out how it awakened

Tobirama never said he studied it. He merely said he "saw it happen" and even passed it off as a rumor when initially telling Hashirama about it.

I.e via strong emotions that unlocked strong chakra (derived from Indra) that messed up their brain even further

And the only Uchihas who "proved" this were Indra transmigrants and Obito.

Tobirama not only had scientific evidence but also historical / anecdotal evidence, seeing how all the biggest crazies & bad guys were Uchiha (with few notable exceptions like Itachi

Madara, Obito, and Sasuke were the most powerful, not necessarily the biggest "crazies". P1 Gaara, Deidara, Sasori, and Hidan are at least as bad or worse.

but considering it's probably his extreme intelligence that allowed him to keep self control and resist Uchiha cursed chakra, that's not a feat most Uchiha would be able to replicate

The irony is that Itachi made some of the dumbest decisions in the entire series.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
I don't think he was wrong simply because the plot never brings up the possibility he was wrong.

Orochimaru outright spells it out for him.

The information he provides is never countered by new information

His information has no factual basis. All he can say is "I saw it with my own eyes" or "did you hear?". He did not conduct research.

and no one regardless of how qualified they are to talk about it even tries to dispute it

This is arguable.

It also lines up very neatly with what we get to see for ourselves.

Actually, not even close.
 

blk

Well-Known Member
According to canon Tobirama was incorrect.

Statement?

Tobirama never said he studied it. He merely said he "saw it happen" and even passed it off as a rumor when initially telling Hashirama about it.

Yes it was first a rumor / suspicion, but then became fact when he actually studied the Sharingan awakening process.

And the only Uchihas who "proved" this were Indra transmigrants and Obito.



Madara, Obito, and Sasuke were the most powerful, not necessarily the biggest "crazies". P1 Gaara, Deidara, Sasori, and Hidan are at least as bad or worse.

No also the Uchiha members that wanted the coup and to exterminate Konoha people.

Anyway Uchiha were always the big bads (and often times manipulating other big bads for their goals).

The irony is that Itachi made some of the dumbest decisions in the entire series.

That's true i guess.

But all his decisions were in good faith.

But you are right some were dumb even if in good faith, guess he too wasn't completely immune to the crazy chakra :catsleep
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
Orochimaru outright spells it out for him.
No. He doesn't. Never does Orochimaru say that his own Uchiha research produced vastly different results. Never does he try to argue that Uchiha's aren't uniquely likely to go insane. He just doesn't do it.

His information has no factual basis. All he can say is "I saw it with my own eyes" or "did you hear?". He did not conduct research.
If it has no factual basis then having the man who knows everything and is a big Uchiha fan in the room would be the ideal time to point that out. That's not what happened though.

Actually, not even close.
Except that's exactly what happened. The result of an Uchiha loving too much and this love being threatened or yanked away always seems to end in extreme violence and mostly in plots to subjugate the entire world too.
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
And the only Uchihas who "proved" this were Indra transmigrants and Obito.
That's three out of four. In other words 75% of what we get to see. And Obito is even the most random and benign Uchiha there ever was before his not girlfriend died.

You could also argue that Fugaku's love for his clan corrupted him to some degree.
 

Corvida

Anda de dia la noche es mia
No. He doesn't.

Yes he does
If it has no factual basis then having the man who knows everything and is a big Uchiha fan in the room would be the ideal time to point that out. That's not what happened though.

first thing big Uchiha fan in the room did was blame Tobirama for a situation he himself created
Except that's exactly what happened. The result of an Uchiha loving too much and this love being threatened or yanked away always seems to end in extreme violence

how many Uchiha were lost during the third war?

How many Uchiha were crazy when Konoha was founded?
and mostly in plots to subjugate the entire world too.
Only the Indra transmigrant that created Tobirama the trauma of his life
 
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Starzenith

Active Member
That's true i guess.

But all his decisions were in good faith.

But you are right some were dumb even if in good faith, guess he too wasn't completely immune to the crazy chakra :catsleep
I don't think you can blame him. Hiruzen who was actually experienced in this and should have found a solution, couldn't. And now we are supposed to expect a 13 year old to stop a curse that began centuries ago?
 

dergeist

Well-Known Member
Yes, but he did it to isolate them and eliminate them. He didn't care about the "emotions" he was more concerned with their power that not even the sense can rival. He was mentally scarred from fighting them. A clan constantly exposed to battle and copying ability would become too powerful and he would lose his position quickly. Therefore, isolate to weaken them, while creating an alliance against them.
 

Starzenith

Active Member
Obito didn't do a face heel turn just, because of Rin, he did it due Madara manipulating him.
True but it wasn't like Madara was there every step of the way, he had numerous opportunities to turn back. I am not blaming him for what he chose, when you are a 13 year old and you find the light of your life being snuffed out that too by the one that swore to protect the said person, anyone would go crazy. But time teaches you to live with pain, we take brash decisions when we are a teenager but what truly indicates our maturity is to realize what we did wrong and to rectify it. I am just mad at Obito because he had numerous chances to come back and even more than a decade to ponder his path, yet had to be Talk-no-jutsu'd out of it. I wonder if he ever asked himself if what he was doing was worth it. Because unlike all the other antagonists in the series, he still had a set path to a bright future, and the fact that he didn't take it without there being a very significantly prime reason, really gets to me.
 

Corvida

Anda de dia la noche es mia
They definitely had a predisposition towards strong emotions, but I think Tobirama was wrong for grouping all Uchiha together.

They were people that were different from each other just like the rest of the human race.
Exactly

and the Bigot was breaking the first of Kishimoto´s laws before Kshi himself betrayed it creating albino aliens

evil isnt born-is created
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
Yes he does
first thing big Uchiha fan in the room did was blame Tobirama for a situation he himself created
Why are you pretending those are the same conversations? Orochimaru said his policies were self defeating. Okay. So where did Orochimaru try and claim the Uchiha's weren't uniquely likely to go crazy?

Only the Indra transmigrant that created Tobirama the trauma of his life
Who? Obito? Sasuke? No I've never heard of them either.

Obito didn't do a face heel turn just, because of Rin, he did it due Madara manipulating him.
In the sense that he orchestrated Rin's death and ensured Obito was there to watch the fireworks. In the end for all of Obito's grand claims it all revolves around Rin, a rejection of the world that killed her and a chance to get her back.
 

Corvida

Anda de dia la noche es mia
Why are you pretending those are the same conversations? Orochimaru said his policies were self defeating.

and he told something even more revealing

Tobirama had a Madara induced trauma




Unbiased bigot starts his "research" following his impressions of themonster under his bed
Who? Obito? Sasuke? No I've never heard of them either.

the baddest Indra tranmigrant of them all and cause of all the Bigot´s nightmares

Madara


And thats the thing Kishi was consistent with about blood limits

 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
and he told something even more revealing

Tobirama had a Madara induced trauma
And then it turns out that was the appropriate reaction when seeing Madara is both all powerful and a colossal prick out who's out to subjugate the world just to satisfy his god complex.
 

Final Fantasy

“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe” XD
In the sense that he orchestrated Rin's death and ensured Obito was there to watch the fireworks. In the end for all of Obito's grand claims it all revolves around Rin, a rejection of the world that killed her and a chance to get her back.
Madara did more than that, he put it in Obito's head that life is hopeless if I remember right (I'm too lazy to look it up).
 

Ruthless Tsuchikage

Well-Known Member
Madara did more than that, he put it in Obito's head that life is hopeless if I remember right (I'm too lazy to look it up).
And Obito rejected all of that until he saw Rin die. Because that's the trigger which in turn lines up with what Tobirama says. Just as how Itachi being the trigger for Sasuke's complete insanity lines up too.
 
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