Wait a Minute! Amarestu = Perfect Form+ Element- So Itachi Has Surpassed Yondaime...

Cthulhu-versailles

The Luckiest Man in Agrabah
Yeah, I just read the chapters. I read from 319 to 323 and immediately thought about Amaretsu. So, it seem like it is a mastered Uchiha equivalent of what Naruto is training to acheive and what Yondaime couldn't. Just a thought.

Amarestu is fire that is "as hot as the sun", but does not burn the user or people around it automatically. Moreover, once used it continues to burn. So it seems like not only the form part has been fulfilled to the utmost, but the element part has as well. Basically, because Itachi is able to contain it and direct it's effects to a degree, which implies ridiculous control and concentration into a specified form, it seems as though he has imparted the teaching Kakashi just instructed us on. In effect, Amarestu then is the perfect jutsu, but using fire. Hence, a perfect mixture, off which elevates Itachi status, to the point where he to has surpassed Yondaime in that respect.

Do you agree? Disagree? Why?
Did I miss something about Kakakshi's explanation?

Don't flame.:cry
 
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No.

There are no indications that Amaterasu works any differently than a Katon no Jutsu in terms of spatial reconfiguration of the chakra.
 
And there is no indication that it does not. Can't say either way, cause all we know is the name of the jutsu and its after effect. Good idea but inconclusive, in my opinion.
 
Muk said:
And there is no indication that it does not. Can't say either way, cause all we know is the name of the jutsu and its after effect. Good idea but inconclusive, in my opinion.

Ever heard of Occam's Razor?
 
Madara said:
There are no indications that Amaterasu works any differently than a Katon no Jutsu in terms of spatial reconfiguration of the chakra.
Besides the fact that it's cast through the eyes instead of the mouth, and the way it's been represented in both GNT4 and NH2-3.
 
Udesphikaiyo said:
Yeah, I just read the chapters. I read from 319 to 323 and immediately thought about Amaretsu. So, it seem like it is a mastered Uchiha equivalent of what Naruto is training to acheive and what Yonaime couldn't. Just a thought.

Amarestu is fire that is "as hot as the sun", but does not burn the user or people around it automatically. Moreover, once used it continues to burn. So it seems like not only the form part has been fulfilled to the utmost, but the element part has as well. Basically, because Itachi is able to contain it and direct it's effects to a degree, which implies ridiculous control and concentration into a specified form, it seems as though he has imparted the teaching Kakashi just instructed us on. In effect, Amarestu then is the perfect jutsu, but using fire. Hence, a perfect mixture, off which elevates Itachi status, to the point where he to has surpassed Yondaime in that respect.

Do you agree? Disagree? Why?
Did I miss something about Kakakshi's explanation?

Don't flame.:cry


ok, so what you're saying is that ameratsu is the only jutsu that has shape and chakra manipulation? i don't think so, chidori has shape and chakra manipulation, so does that mran that sasuke, even with chidori nagashi, surpassed yondaime? i Dont think so.

yondaime couldn't add his nature manipulated chakra because it was really hard to concentrate on maintaining the perfect shape manipulation and add his nature chakra.
 
adding nature manipulation to a pure chakra based attack, in principle, isn't hard. chidori is actually lightning element gathered in the hand, then manipulated into a blade. most nin's in naruto are skilled enough to extend a blade with their natured chakra. more skilled nin's have a more "perfect" blade based on their chakra control.

the problem with the wind rasengan is that the rasengan itself is the pinicle of chakra control and manipulation. just from observing it, it has hundreds of spirals of constantly moving chakra in it, contrained in a shell of chakra. we are talking about the difference in destructive power of a perfectly sharp blade to a condenced, centralized hurricane.

yondi created the rasengan up to the point of what naruto learned in part 1. he set the bar for chakra manipulation, and frankly, naruto surpassed that already (oodama rasengan). yondi's one goal was to make the "perfect jutsu". by adding natured chakra to then perfect manipulation, this move is considered 100x+ more technical then making a blade have an edge. it will require perfect chakra control.

so compaired to that, how is shooting black flames, which is no different then any other fire jutsu then the fact that the flames are black and as hot as the sun. sure the move can burn you to a crisp, but its a bloodline move. its a freebee. you have to train to master bloodlines, not to obtain/create. in my mind itachi's move is junk because it was handed to him in a sense and i'm guessing its a one a day move because his chakra sucks.
 
No, i think amataresu is not a form of chakra like rasengan, but only fire element, much of it gathered together so its much hotter
 
Kraax said:
chidori is actually lightning element gathered in the hand, then manipulated into a blade.
I believe the "spatial recomposition" part of the Chidori was described as something like that of an electrical discharge, not a blade.

sure the move can burn you to a crisp, but its a bloodline move. its a freebee. you have to train to master bloodlines, not to obtain/create. in my mind itachi's move is junk because it was handed to him in a sense
With the Amaterasu, you would be correct(both the Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi seem to be techniques that were only known within the Uchiha clan). But not all bloodline techniques are "handed down". With the Mangekyou Sharingan specifically, new techniques can be devised through it, it's not just limited to what we've seen thus far.
 
i've seen an increasing amount of threads going, is this and this jutsu form and nature manipulation, does that mean so and so surpassed yondaime!!!!!? NO! Not only do we not know which techniques are what, the situation is this, rasengan is the very top of form manipulation, ok, and yondaime intended to add his own nature into it, which would mean it's near impossible, because of the high level of the rasengan. i'm sure that at lower levels, very talented shinobi can do both, but at the very highest levels, it's next to impossible.
 
hmmm...interesting...but no i think

need to have more detail information about how the jutsu is shaped etc...
plus i believe that one can auto learn amaterasu if he had ms...
 
amaterasu cant be seen as a normall jutsu. not to mention one does not just get it as an upgrade, kakashi cant even use it with his MS. it has no nature manipulation or shape manipulation. its a mystic fire (not katon) that burns anything and everything, and its form is always round like a ball. only thing itachi can do with it is set the distance where its used and the size of the amaterasu. naruto new technique is something copmpletely different. also so far there has been no jutsu that can rival the amatersau in power, only one to come close was the big black ball of minikyuubi.

p.s. even without form & elemental controll itachi has surpassed the 4th or any other nin so far in the manga. hes the goal of the main characters, the mountain they must climb over.
 
Combining spatial (form) recomposition and physical (element) recomposition isn't what will surpass Yondaime. That has been done before. It is the fact that there are different levels of spatial recomposition. And most likely, different levels of physical recomposition.

So Yondaime is trying to physically recompose the highest level of form. Chidori is a combination of both , but the form is surely a lower level than rasengan. As for the applied element, we don't know how levels of elements is measured (form levels are measured upto the rasengan).

If anything, the amaterasu is probably strongly based on the element. And there is no inclination or evidence in the manga to believe the jutsu has any spatial recomposition applied.
 
Udesphikaiyo said:
Yeah, I just read the chapters. I read from 319 to 323 and immediately thought about Amaretsu. So, it seem like it is a mastered Uchiha equivalent of what Naruto is training to acheive and what Yondaime couldn't. Just a thought.

Amarestu is fire that is "as hot as the sun", but does not burn the user or people around it automatically. Moreover, once used it continues to burn. So it seems like not only the form part has been fulfilled to the utmost, but the element part has as well. Basically, because Itachi is able to contain it and direct it's effects to a degree, which implies ridiculous control and concentration into a specified form, it seems as though he has imparted the teaching Kakashi just instructed us on. In effect, Amarestu then is the perfect jutsu, but using fire. Hence, a perfect mixture, off which elevates Itachi status, to the point where he to has surpassed Yondaime in that respect.

Do you agree? Disagree? Why?
Did I miss something about Kakakshi's explanation?

Don't flame.:cry

Do people even read what Kakashi said before they post about this or what???
NO Yondiame could not merge element and form with the shape of RASENGAN. because rasengans shape is the absolute highest level of shape manipulation.
 
Udesphikaiyo said:
Yeah, I just read the chapters. I read from 319 to 323 and immediately thought about Amaretsu. So, it seem like it is a mastered Uchiha equivalent of what Naruto is training to acheive and what Yondaime couldn't. Just a thought.

Amarestu is fire that is "as hot as the sun", but does not burn the user or people around it automatically. Moreover, once used it continues to burn. So it seems like not only the form part has been fulfilled to the utmost, but the element part has as well. Basically, because Itachi is able to contain it and direct it's effects to a degree, which implies ridiculous control and concentration into a specified form, it seems as though he has imparted the teaching Kakashi just instructed us on. In effect, Amarestu then is the perfect jutsu, but using fire. Hence, a perfect mixture, off which elevates Itachi status, to the point where he to has surpassed Yondaime in that respect.

Do you agree? Disagree? Why?
Did I miss something about Kakakshi's explanation?

Don't flame.:cry

Ameretsu may be the "Perfect" fire jutsu. But i dont follow how that makes him greater then Yondaime. It's not like Itachi took anouther elemental-less jutsu and mixed fire with to to MAKE Ameretsu... It just came free with his eyes, somehign any Uchiha Sharinan user could do if he/she knew how to aquire he MS...
 
Even if it were on par with the Rasengan in terms of spatial recomposition, the odds of which being 0.000001%, it's only possible for Itachi through use of the Mangekyou. Naruto, however, is going to achieve it through pure skill, which is why doing so means surpassing the Fourth in Ninjutsu - because he'd be better than even him. Itachi would just have his cheat code eyes doing the work.
 
So then what is Kakashi's Black hole? Surely that massive distortion is the ultimate in spatial recompisition, and yet he can't take Rasengan to the next level?

Also, Amataseru's thing is power, not form. It's incredibly hot, but it's form is likely no more impressive than a regular katon, if even that. More likely than not, it works similiar to Kakashi's black hole technique - Itachi simply concentrates his vision on the target at a semi close range and the target bursts into black flames. I doubt there's even much of any form to it at all.

Mangekyo techniques pretty much seem to have thier own rules compared to other ninjutsus. We need to find out more about the Mangekyo in general before even beginning to make comparisons like this. For all we know, they are as simple as "WOW I GOT A MANGEKYO, LOOK AT ALL THESE FREE S-CLASS JUTSUS I GOT!" I hope it doesn't quite work like that, as it takes away from Kakashi's new jutsu a bit, but I see no evidence to the contrary yet.
 
You do not need perfect form to prevent yourself from getting burned by a flame as hot as the sun. I'm pretty sure oxy-acetylene torches are capable of getting as hot as at least the surface of the sun. Those are the welding torches that have a blue flame. So although amatesaru does require some form manipulation, the level of form control pales in comparison to the form used in Rasengan.

*EDIT* upon further research, i realized an oxyacetylene does not reach the temperature on the surface of the sun, but does get halfway. The surface on the sun is approximately double the temperature of an oxyaceylene torch in celsius.
 
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i dont have a theory as far as the form manipulation or elemental affinities but ive seen continuous references to the ameretsu flame being as hot as the sun which is wrong. ameretsus fire is much hoter than the sun. fire in its origonal stse is orange and second it is yellow and red. the third state is a blue flame and a flame that has reached the fourth critical tempature will burn white, but when it goes beyond that it changes to a black flame. so Ameretsu is indeed much more impressive than any other katon we've seen and most likely the highest lvl possible and is indeed much hotter than the sun.

I can also say ive heard a lot of debate that katons are useless unless used on a high lvl. Well, if u look at most katons that seem usless they are orange in color in the anime while if u look at high lvl katons such as sadaimes endan or sasukes dragon fire u will see that they havr either yellow or red tints to them which would make them second lvl in terms of heat.

I would b sweet to c a blue or a white katon.
 
Amaterasu is part of the Sharingan blood line, and we all know that bloodlines, especialy the Sharingan, are hax.

So it doesn't count.
 
<insertnamehere> said:
You do not need perfect form to prevent yourself from getting burned by a flame as hot as the sun. I'm pretty sure oxy-acetylene torches are capable of getting as hot as at least the surface of the sun. Those are the welding torches that have a blue flame. So although amatesaru does require some form manipulation, the level of form control pales in comparison to the form used in Rasengan.

*EDIT* upon further research, i realized an oxyacetylene does not reach the temperature on the surface of the sun, but does get halfway. The surface on the sun is approximately double the temperature of an oxyaceylene torch in celsius.

umm.. what part of the sun? there are thigns called "sun spots" where the sun is remarkably cooler, around what may be twice that of a torch, but nothing you can make by burning somethign releases the amount of energy made in Nuclear fusion that takes place on the sun...
 
This is untrue because if Itachi has done what Naruto is trying to do and Sasuke wants to defeat Itachi then Sasuke>Yondi. And since Naruto is trying to defeat Sasuke in terms of strength then he would have to be Naruto>>>Itachi>Yondi<Sasuke, this is confusing and annoying. Lets not think that Itachi has surpassed Yondi because then too many ninjas will have to surpass Yondi to accomplish their goals.
 
Odlam said:
So then what is Kakashi's Black hole? Surely that massive distortion is the ultimate in spatial recompisition, and yet he can't take Rasengan to the next level?

Also, Amataseru's thing is power, not form. It's incredibly hot, but it's form is likely no more impressive than a regular katon, if even that. More likely than not, it works similiar to Kakashi's black hole technique - Itachi simply concentrates his vision on the target at a semi close range and the target bursts into black flames. I doubt there's even much of any form to it at all.

Mangekyo techniques pretty much seem to have thier own rules compared to other ninjutsus. We need to find out more about the Mangekyo in general before even beginning to make comparisons like this. For all we know, they are as simple as "WOW I GOT A MANGEKYO, LOOK AT ALL THESE FREE S-CLASS JUTSUS I GOT!" I hope it doesn't quite work like that, as it takes away from Kakashi's new jutsu a bit, but I see no evidence to the contrary yet.

i agree, and do so with a couple other posts in here as well.. i dont think this works the same way with a doujutsu as it does with the rasengan kakashi is talking about. yondaime is creating something from scratch in order to complete an already s-class jutsu which he created. whereas ameretasu is an s-class jutsu that comes with gaining the mangekyou. i dont think itachi could do that persay.
 
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