The Admiral=Yonkou Debate is Officially Over

Sablés

Well-Known Member
Greenbull defeated an injured King and Queen off-panel while BM without haki or abilities stomped a fresh Queen in 2 hits.
I mean he's sort of deflecting using a non-sequitur anyway.
His argument depends on BM being weaker than the admirals. I was just explaining that a simple rationale is that BM won't be afraid of Shanks because she's stronger than the admirals. Whether or not that's the case, it's his job to refute that and support his original claim.

Typical Turrin.
 

Ezekjuninor

The Conqueror
BM is weaker than akainu

yes i am being irrational in saying this :DankPepe
I mean that is possible but it’s pretty obvious that Akainu will be stronger than the other admirals. He also holds the rank of fleet admiral not admiral. Personally I have them on the same level.
 

Turrin

玄武
What have the admirals shown that puts her above Big Mom? Beating up relative/injured fodder that she could trivialize herself?

Story calls her stronger than the admirals the crew faced before. Good enough for me :kanyeshrug
K/Q/Backup > Marco. She indicated Marco is a tough fight for her. You can say K/Q were injured but Injuries rarely effect someone as strong as K/Q performance in One Piece and they had the elemental advantage over GB. Plus even if I grant them pushing GB to Mid diff when fully healed, that means GB is still beating them with a similar Diff to BM beating Marco, so GB >= BM.

Kizaru checked Raleigh who is off the same generation and legendary status as BM. Raleigh vs BM I lean towards Raleigh, but even if we give it to BM it’s extreme diff; and it can be argued Kizaru had the edge on Raleigh. So Kizaru >= BM, also fits what the story has shown.

Fujitora took on DR Sabo and had the edge. DR Sabo is also around Top Tier level given that even Pre-Mera Fruit he was able to crush a YC1 (Burgess) and was already second in command of the Revos above Ivankor who is easily Top Commander level herself; so Post Mera he is Top Tier. Fujitora being >= Top Tier puts him also >= BM, who is among the weakest Top Tiers herself.
——
Where does the story ever say that
 
I mean that is possible but it’s pretty obvious that Akainu will be stronger than the other admirals. He also holds the rank of fleet admiral not admiral. Personally I have them on the same level.
lets be honest, its very unlikely to happen lol

i just willingly let my disdain for BM override my sense of logical reasoning

for akainu to be stronger than BM, he'd have to be a good 2 or 3 times stronger than his admirals
 

Turrin

玄武
Greenbull defeated an injured King and Queen off-panel while BM without haki or abilities stomped a fresh Queen in 2 hits.
Queen got back up, she wasn’t defeated.

K/Q/Backup >>> Queen.

GB Feat is still better.

Though if you prefer we can look at how Roof Top 3-4 gave BM extreme amount of trouble, a group of fighters also much weaker then K/Q.
—-
The point being BM does not have any feats you can point to that are Better then the Admirals and the only characters cleanly above the Admirals are also above BM. So I think it’s pretty fair to place Admiral >=~ BM
 

Turrin

玄武
I'm not down for non-sequiturs and A > B > C logic. You need to definitively prove Big Mom's weaker than the admirals, not give me scenarios with a ton of asterisks behind them.

Rayleigh has nothing to do with Big Mom either.
There is no way you can definitively prove BM is stronger ether; as no definitive statement has ever been made that BM is above the Admirals ether. The only thing we can look at is how they performed in terms of feats and portrayal.

A/B/C logic works fine unless someone is a type mismatch for someone else. If anything GB was at the type disadvantage against King due to King Fire abilities. So A/B/C logic actually hurts GB here not BM.

Raleigh matters because it speaks to portrayal, Kizaru was clearly portrayed as someone who could take on these old legend from BM’s era. BM is the same type of legendary Pirate as Raleigh. As such Kizaru being able to take her on fits his potrayal.

—-
Robin is saying that because they never took on an Admiral directly before. They have always just run form Admirals or tried to circumvent them. As opposed to declaring war against BM.
 

Ezekjuninor

The Conqueror
Queen got back up, she wasn’t defeated.

K/Q/Backup >>> Queen.

GB Feat is still better.
BM stomped a fresh Queen while heavily nerfed. We don’t know how long Greenbull fought K/Q for or how much trouble they gave him other than he wasn’t injured.
Though if you prefer we can look at how Roof Top 3-4 gave BM extreme amount of trouble, a group of fighters also much weaker then K/Q.
Rooftop 4 are FAR stronger than an injured King/Queen and they didn’t even injure BM at all. She just underestimated them and didn’t realise she had been pushed off of Onigashima.
The point being BM does not have any feats you can point to that are Better then the Admirals and the only characters cleanly above the Admirals are also above BM. So I think it’s pretty fair to place Admiral >=~ BM
BM fought equally with Kaido for 2 to 3 days, BM has split the skies, BM was an emperor of the seas for decades, BM performed better against Marco than Kizaru did despite being at a significant DF disadvantage.

The only feat you’re using to try prove admirals>BM is Greenbull defeating a heavily injured King/Queen, something that BM could replicate based off of her other feats.
 

JustSumGuy

The True SNIPER KING
lets be honest, its very unlikely to happen lol

i just willingly let my disdain for BM override my sense of logical reasoning

for akainu to be stronger than BM, he'd have to be a good 2 or 3 times stronger than his admirals
I mean, its possible considering one of his admirals is a Akainu meat rider desperate for his approval.
 

Seraphoenix

Withering away
There were so many points in the story where this was obvious. To be frank, Oda had to dumb it down tremendously with GB and Shanks, and Shanks in movie Red for these admiral fans to finally start living in reality. It's unfortunate that Oda had to go to those lengths but when you have people like YellowCosmos writing dissertations of cope, you leave the author no choice.
 

RossellaFiamingo

☠️The proud do not endure, like a passing dream on a night in spring;☠️
There is no way you can definitively prove BM is stronger ether; as no definitive statement has ever been made that BM is above the Admirals ether. The only thing we can look at is how they performed in terms of feats and portrayal.

A/B/C logic works fine unless someone is a type mismatch for someone else. If anything GB was at the type disadvantage against King due to King Fire abilities. So A/B/C logic actually hurts GB here not BM.

Raleigh matters because it speaks to portrayal, Kizaru was clearly portrayed as someone who could take on these old legend from BM’s era. BM is the same type of legendary Pirate as Raleigh. As such Kizaru being able to take her on fits his potrayal.

—-
Robin is saying that because they never took on an Admiral directly before. They have always just run form Admirals or tried to circumvent them. As opposed to declaring war against BM.


 

Sablés

Well-Known Member
There is no way you can definitively prove BM is stronger ether;
That's the best part. I don't have to.
You do, because you started this by using BM as a crux for your argument of the admirals vs Shanks. :mjlol

Robin is saying that because they never took on an Admiral directly before. They have always just run form Admirals or tried to circumvent them. As opposed to declaring war against BM.
This is cope and inference. Robin said she was on a completely different level than their prior opponents. Were the admirals opponents for the SHs? Yes they were, so they're included.

Ballsy of you to say that they were running from the admirals when Luffy specifically chose to confront Fujitora
 

Ezekjuninor

The Conqueror
Kizaru checked Raleigh who is off the same generation and legendary status as BM. Raleigh vs BM I lean towards Raleigh, but even if we give it to BM it’s extreme diff; and it can be argued Kizaru had the edge on Raleigh. So Kizaru >= BM, also fits what the story has shown.
You’re comparing an old Rayleigh who hasn’t fought in years to BM. The idea that that version of Rayleigh is as strong as BM is ridiculous.
Fujitora took on DR Sabo and had the edge. DR Sabo is also around Top Tier level given that even Pre-Mera Fruit he was able to crush a YC1 (Burgess) and was already second in command of the Revos above Ivankor who is easily Top Commander level herself; so Post Mera he is Top Tier. Fujitora being >= Top Tier puts him also >= BM, who is among the weakest Top Tiers herself.
DR Sabo isn’t close to a top tier. Pre-Mera Sabo didn’t crush Burgess at all, he countered his attack and broke his elbow pad. He didn’t beat Burgess until he obtained the Mera Mera, and he stated himself, that Burgess would leave him incapable of stopping someone as weak as Doflamingo. Claiming Burgess is YC1 is an absolute joke with no evidence. Ivankov is also nowhere close to top commander level based off of his feats. You claim BM is the weakest top tier based on what? You actually think DR Sabo is stronger than Wano Kid/Law? How does that even make sense in your head.
K/Q/Backup > Marco. She indicated Marco is a tough fight for her. You can say K/Q were injured but Injuries rarely effect someone as strong as K/Q performance in One Piece and they had the elemental advantage over GB.
An injured King and Queen would likely have a very close fight with a fresh Marco if not outright lose. injuries affect everyone’s performances in One Piece what are you talking about. It was stated that the alliance was hindered by their injuries a hundred times over the past few chapters. Sengoku had squardo stab WB at the start of MF to injure him. Doflamingo was hindered by gamma knife, Kaido was stated to be weakening at the start of his fight with Luffy to the point that he couldn’t even properly hold Onigashima anymore.

You claim King/Queen had an elemental advantage when Marco had a far bigger advantage against BM who had Zeus out of commission and Prometheus was completely useless against Marco.
Plus even if I grant them pushing GB to Mid diff when fully healed, that means GB is still beating them with a similar Diff to BM beating Marco, so GB >= BM.
When did Marco show he could give BM mid diff? He was being held and choked by her within seconds. Marco can give anyone trouble due to his devil fruit. That was shown in marineford when he confronted Akainu and Kizaru.
 

Turrin

玄武
That's the best part. I don't have to.
You do, because you started this by using BM as a crux for your argument of the admirals vs Shanks. :mjlol


This is cope and inference. Robin said she was on a completely different level than their prior opponents. Were the admirals opponents for the SHs? Yes they were, so they're included.

Ballsy of you to say that they were running from the admirals when Luffy specifically chose to confront Fujitora
You made a counter claim that BM > Admirals. So yes you do. Otherwise you concede your counter claim.
—-
The only one coping is you. By trying to completely ignore context. Same reasoning could lead me to argue Enel is > BM. Due to Robin’s hyping his DF as unbeatable
—-
Luffy tried to confront Fuji but then got yeeted and they ran.
 

Turrin

玄武
You’re comparing an old Rayleigh who hasn’t fought in years to BM. The idea that that version of Rayleigh is as strong as BM is ridiculous.

DR Sabo isn’t close to a top tier. Pre-Mera Sabo didn’t crush Burgess at all, he countered his attack and broke his elbow pad. He didn’t beat Burgess until he obtained the Mera Mera, and he stated himself, that Burgess would leave him incapable of stopping someone as weak as Doflamingo. Claiming Burgess is YC1 is an absolute joke with no evidence. Ivankov is also nowhere close to top commander level based off of his feats. You claim BM is the weakest top tier based on what? You actually think DR Sabo is stronger than Wano Kid/Law? How does that even make sense in your head.

An injured King and Queen would likely have a very close fight with a fresh Marco if not outright lose. injuries affect everyone’s performances in One Piece what are you talking about. It was stated that the alliance was hindered by their injuries a hundred times over the past few chapters. Sengoku had squardo stab WB at the start of MF to injure him. Doflamingo was hindered by gamma knife, Kaido was stated to be weakening at the start of his fight with Luffy to the point that he couldn’t even properly hold Onigashima anymore.

You claim King/Queen had an elemental advantage when Marco had a far bigger advantage against BM who had Zeus out of commission and Prometheus was completely useless against Marco.

When did Marco show he could give BM mid diff? He was being held and choked by her within seconds. Marco can give anyone trouble due to his devil fruit. That was shown in marineford when he confronted Akainu and Kizaru.
1- Raleigh was considered a legend of similar status to WB, whose > BM. Do you have any proof BM has fought any kind of serious enemy for Years prior to Wano?

2- Him and Burgess clashed and Burgess is the one who ended up with his weapon crushed. Sabo was clearly beating Burgess. Burgess is literally stated to be Division Commander 1 of the Black Beard Pirates. Meaning he is literally a YC1; and he is noted for his strength even among the other Black Beard Commanders. The only one noted above him is Shiryuu, but Shiryuu is obviously Top Tier and above YC1, given his standings in contrast to Zoro.

3. Luffy and Kaidou at their most injured still unleashed their strongest attacks. Zoro with every bone in his body unleashed his strongest attack on the roof. Law at the most damaged unleashed his strongest attack on BM. And so on… injuries can have an effect but it’s ultimately minimal in One Piece as characters despite injuries can still pull out their peak power.

Plus your missing the point. Even if I grant you all of these excuses and say K/Q/Backup =~ Marco; and at full health they would give GB the same diff that Marco was indicated to give BM; that still just places BM and GB as around the same level. Which is exactly why I said GB >= BM, since at worse he’s around the same level with excuses for K/Q; and at best he is above her without excuses for them.

4. When they clashed equally and he KO’d Napoleon; and then she ran from the fight saying it would take time and cost her homies to beat him.

Landing one Grab doenst mean anything when BM couldn’t even capitalize on it without asking Perspero for help and then after he was no longer able to help her she ran from the fight.
 

TheOmega

SB TATUM > your favorite rapper
K/Q/Backup > Marco. She indicated Marco is a tough fight for her. You can say K/Q were injured but Injuries rarely effect someone as strong as K/Q performance in One Piece and they had the elemental advantage over GB. Plus even if I grant them pushing GB to Mid diff when fully healed, that means GB is still beating them with a similar Diff to BM beating Marco, so GB >= BM.

Kizaru checked Raleigh who is off the same generation and legendary status as BM. Raleigh vs BM I lean towards Raleigh, but even if we give it to BM it’s extreme diff; and it can be argued Kizaru had the edge on Raleigh. So Kizaru >= BM, also fits what the story has shown.

Fujitora took on DR Sabo and had the edge. DR Sabo is also around Top Tier level given that even Pre-Mera Fruit he was able to crush a YC1 (Burgess) and was already second in command of the Revos above Ivankor who is easily Top Commander level herself; so Post Mera he is Top Tier. Fujitora being >= Top Tier puts him also >= BM, who is among the weakest Top Tiers herself.
——
Where does the story ever say that
:scustthese takes are so 🚮
 

Sablés

Well-Known Member
You made a counter claim that BM > Admirals. So yes you do. Otherwise you concede your counter claim.
Sure, if you can somehow contradict Robin's claim of BM being stronger than the admirals. But I hope you know that you've just tacitly admitted your own claim doesn't hold weight unless you can prove she's weaker than the admirals. My counter-claim is independent of that.
Same reasoning could lead me to argue Enel is > BM. Due to Robin’s hyping his DF as unbeatable
No, it couldn't. What the fuck is this logic?

Robin calling Enel's DF unbeatable just means she's incorrect about Enel, not that it is in the same context as her considering a Yonko (not even BM specifically, just her status as Yonko) above the crew's previous opponents. By the way? Context isn't "whatever I want it to be so I can weasel out of a blatant conclusion". :kobeha

Luffy tried to confront Fuji but then got yeeted and they ran.
You mean just like with Big Mom?
 
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