reincarnation: theories on what it is, and if it exists

earthshine

earthshine

Banned
So me and this guy where having a conversation about reiencarnation the other day, and he asks me to give another explanation for "past lives" people claim they partially remember


my answer to this was genetic memory.


I theorized that since genes can hold information that is accessible to the creature in question, it may be possible for especially strong feelings and memories to somehow be recorded in genes, and passed down to later members of their line(it could remain dormant for many generations), the same way important things we learned as a race over time(instincts and the like) where.


since many of the memories tend to be of supposedly important to that person, it's possible that the person is just getting the information stored in their genes, rather then having some spiritual awakening.




so what are your ideas on the matter, oh wise NF?
 
Have you ever played the game "Assasin's Creed"? Its a game where they go into this guys genes to find the memories of his ancestor who killed important religious figures during the cristian crusades.

According to the philosophies of the game, Different specieseses have instincts, because the memories of their ancestors are in their DNA. there is actually modern scientific study on this subject, where they are actually looking to find ancestral memories in DNA.

I certianly hope this is possible and true, because it would make for some interesting discoveries.
 
no strong feelings and memories are not passed on through genes. that is demonstrably false.

reincarnation is impossible and logically self-contradictory: "you" become "someone else" - :wha :argh :facepalm
 
AbnormallyNormal said:
no strong feelings and memories are not passed on through genes. that is demonstrably false.

reincarnation is impossible and logically self-contradictory: "you" become "someone else" - :wha :argh :facepalm
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How is it logically self-contradictory? Clearly you don't understand the concept.
 
its self contradictory bcause "you" die. then there is "someone else" which is by definition NOT "you". so how is it 'you'?
 
AbnormallyNormal said:
its self contradictory bcause "you" die. then there is "someone else" which is by definition NOT "you". so how is it 'you'?
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Well, they are dealing with an ontological dualism, and one could make an argument that one self is a construct of mind (soul), body, and experience. And thus if your soul has a new life, you are not the same individual qua individual.
 
AbnormallyNormal said:
its self contradictory bcause "you" die. then there is "someone else" which is by definition NOT "you". so how is it 'you'?
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In my religion, "you" is the soul (not mind & not body) therefore when the body degrades and dies, the soul moves into another body. I should have explained that first.
 
Reincarnation is the most probable system of belief.

Far more than the "one life, one eternity" theories sent out by many Western religions.

I personally believe in it, but I am lazy and exhausted at the moment so I will not bother elaborating upon it other than mentioning the Wheel of Samsara.

I will also attempt to back up the "more probable" aspects of it as opposed to other beliefs, but I will do that later after I hear some more intelligent discussion on the subject and after I am more fit to write really long paragraphs.

AbnormallyNormal said:
its self contradictory bcause "you" die. then there is "someone else" which is by definition NOT "you". so how is it 'you'?
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:lmao

Well that would depend on how narrowly you define "you."
 
AbnormallyNormal said:
no strong feelings and memories are not passed on through genes. that is demonstrably false.

reincarnation is impossible and logically self-contradictory: "you" become "someone else" - :wha :argh :facepalm
Click to expand...

No no no "you" do not change your appearance and physical body changes
it's like wearing clothes you wear a red t-shirt one day and a blue vest the next
 
funkmasterswede said:
Well, they are dealing with an ontological dualism, and one could make an argument that one self is a construct of mind (soul), body, and experience. And thus if your soul has a new life, you are not the same individual qua individual.
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Correct, as said in Sanatana Dharma or Hinduism, The body is our phys.body, the soul is the atman, and the experience is ego if im correct. When most people die the Body and the Ego/Exp. are destroyed and the Atman/Soul passes into the next body depending on your Karma (pronounced: Kurmaa, U is pronounced as in umbrella.) However in the case of ghosts the body is destroyed but not the Ego. And the Atman w/ the Ego forms a ghost.

makeoutparadise2 said:
No no no "you" do not change your appearance and physical body changes
it's like wearing clothes you wear a red t-shirt one day and a blue vest the next
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Right, as its said in the Bhagwad Gita, You discard your old body as you would dirty clothes, and put on a fresh garment. This cycle of death and rebirth is known as Samsara and halts only when you reach the Lord.
 
I personally believe in the ancient Egyptian cycle of reincarnation. That when the consciousness (Ba) fails to reunite with the life force (Ka) after death, the person is reborn physically.

Then there's the question of whether the soul can be destroyed or not...
 
well you'd have to make a thread trying to convince people of the existence of non-material soulstuff before making this thread quite honestly.

since "souls" are a really really realy hard to believe in thing.
 
PerveeSage said:
Have you ever played the game "Assasin's Creed"? Its a game where they go into this guys genes to find the memories of his ancestor who killed important religious figures during the cristian crusades.

According to the philosophies of the game, Different specieseses have instincts, because the memories of their ancestors are in their DNA. there is actually modern scientific study on this subject, where they are actually looking to find ancestral memories in DNA.

I certianly hope this is possible and true, because it would make for some interesting discoveries.
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Kick...ass... game! :kloff It really changed my outlook on Islam (for the better).

It seems to be a really good theory, and while current probability may be against it, science may be able to further analyze the concept of genetic memory in the future.
 
I think the only way to determine if reincarnation actually exists is to count up all the organisms in the earth on 2 different dates, then see if the number's the same. But this is, of course, impossible.
 
Neji64 said:
I think the only way to determine if reincarnation actually exists is to count up all the organisms in the earth on 2 different dates, then see if the number's the same. But this is, of course, impossible.
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Another problem with that is what constitutes an "organism."

For example, many theories actually see stages like Human, Animal, Plant, and Mineral as "bodies."

Can't really count that. :sag
 
II Xion II said:
Another problem with that is what constitutes an "organism."

For example, many theories actually see stages like Human, Animal, Plant, and Mineral as "bodies."

Can't really count that. :sag
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We should just make every single organism extinct, then kill a human, see what happens. :beer
 
If reincarnation is possible, then we won't reach enlightenment by effort, we will reach it by luck.

I don't remember who I was in previous life, what mistake or good I made for me to be in this form today. I have no choose whether i'm going to be reincarnated as a Hindu or a Neo-Nazi. So, how can i avoid to repeat the same favorite mistake given the same situation occurs? Even if I'm a monk or priest in this life, then there's one in a gajillionth possibility whether I'll reach enlightenment or reincarnated as Buddha, or a god, or a frog. Morally, how can I improve if I don't know or remember what I should learn from?

It can be gross actually. Imagine if your wife today was your previous daughter or sister or even brother. You must be damn lucky to get that eh?

But, that aside, I don't deny the possibility of reincarnation. Even if there are past memories encoded into my gene, I doesn't necessarily make it "my" memories in "my past lives". That would mean souls are inherited as our memories are. If I die today, then I'm going most likely to be reborn as my great great great great grandchild. Then I can't be his dog...or his god. I can't reach enlightenment that way...can I?

So, I conclude, if reincarnation is real, then there maybe other or no way at all to reach enlightenment, than what's currently established in existing religions. Chances are, we'll be achieve enlightenment by pure luck.
 
7th Revenant said:
If reincarnation is possible, then we won't reach enlightenment by effort, we will reach it by luck.

I don't remember who I was in previous life, what mistake or good I made for me to be in this form today. I have no choose whether i'm going to be reincarnated as a Hindu or a Neo-Nazi. So, how can i avoid to repeat the same favorite mistake given the same situation occurs? Even if I'm a monk or priest in this life, then there's one in a gajillionth possibility whether I'll reach enlightenment or reincarnated as Buddha, or a god, or a frog. Morally, how can I improve if I don't know or remember what I should learn from?

It can be gross actually. Imagine if your wife today was your previous daughter or sister or even brother. You must be damn lucky to get that eh?

But, that aside, I don't deny the possibility of reincarnation. Even if there are past memories encoded into my gene, I doesn't necessarily make it "my" memories in "my past lives". That would mean souls are inherited as our memories are. If I die today, then I'm going most likely to be reborn as my great great great great grandchild. Then I can't be his dog...or his god. I can't reach enlightenment that way...can I?

So, I conclude, if reincarnation is real, then there maybe other or no way at all to reach enlightenment, than what's currently established in existing religions. Chances are, we'll be achieve enlightenment by pure luck.
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You haven't understood it. Reincarnation isn't a random process, God is the mediator and how you live your human life is the factor which influences the decision, i.e. God works with what you make of yourself. If your wife today was your brother in a previous life, that's just how it is .. how is it gross though? The bodies, both tangible physical bodies and subtle (mental) bodies are different. The soul stays the same but since when did you have sex with a soul? The 'memories' theory in this thread doesn't have a basis in any religion. And luck doesn't factor; arguably the concept of karma renders 'luck' impossible anyway.
 
7th Revenant said:
If reincarnation is possible, then we won't reach enlightenment by effort, we will reach it by luck.
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Speaking on behalf of my beliefs, the whole purpose of the cycle is to ESCAPE the cycle.

Bodies are chosen primarily by karma (and the will of your personal god, but that is a topic for another day) and the act of returning (reincarnation is technically reserved for bodhissatvas and such) has the goal of reaching the human stage (from mineral, plant, and animal evolution) in order for the enlightenment to occur. We are given a fixed number of lives to achieve this in the human stage before the devolution begins and the second death. And then the wheel starts anew and the process repeats a specified number of times until success is achieved or until we run out of chances.

7th Revenant said:
I don't remember who I was in previous life, what mistake or good I made for me to be in this form today. I have no choose whether i'm going to be reincarnated as a Hindu or a Neo-Nazi. So, how can i avoid to repeat the same favorite mistake given the same situation occurs? Even if I'm a monk or priest in this life, then there's one in a gajillionth possibility whether I'll reach enlightenment or reincarnated as Buddha, or a god, or a frog. Morally, how can I improve if I don't know or remember what I should learn from?
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Probably the most asked and appropriate question.

The truth is it is our fault that we cannot remember previous lives due to our constant choices to dwell in desires and the corporeal world over the generations. In order to regain that knowledge, cultivating self-awareness and consciousness is necessary.

7th Revenant said:
It can be gross actually. Imagine if your wife today was your previous daughter or sister or even brother. You must be damn lucky to get that eh?
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Maybe. But it misses the point. Although the exact concept of love and how one chooses a mate is more complicated so I will not go into it.

7th Revenant said:
But, that aside, I don't deny the possibility of reincarnation. Even if there are past memories encoded into my gene, I doesn't necessarily make it "my" memories in "my past lives". That would mean souls are inherited as our memories are. If I die today, then I'm going most likely to be reborn as my great great great great grandchild. Then I can't be his dog...or his god. I can't reach enlightenment that way...can I?
Click to expand...

My beliefs regarding reincarnation are that you remain in the human form for a specified number of lives (108 I believe) and then descend into the other forms.

Although the process to reach enlightenment in the human form is a little more complicated to describe.

But genes are believed to be a result of karmic influences, so who we are and what family we have is determined by genes.

7th Revenant said:
So, I conclude, if reincarnation is real, then there maybe other or no way at all to reach enlightenment, than what's currently established in existing religions. Chances are, we'll be achieve enlightenment by pure luck.
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It is not luck and never will be!
 
Ahh, here we go. Life and death are intertwined with each other to the point where they are indistinguishable. Clovers spring up over your grave, drawing life from the nitrates in your rotting flesh. Some animal or other eats it and either it gets eaten by something that preys on it or it dies and everything starts over from the clovers. Eventually though, one or more parts of your matter, which started as food for other cells, will be enough to become cells of their own as they work their way around the food chain. It will take a hell of a long time and a lot of luck, but in the far future you'll end up as an embryo again.

Though I suppose if you get cremated, you'd be pretty much screwed. The most you can make out of the carbon matter of your ashes is a itty bitty little diamond. And the path back to life reaches a dead end there.
 
well, we are by some people's beliefs spirits in a body. When we die we shed our physical bodies, and then find a new one. We become a new person by the new body and the experiences a person gains in each lifetime. but we still retain the essence of ourselves, our soul, our core personality whatever you wanna call it. Think of it like water, if you freeze it, it becomes ice, if you heat it up it'll eventually evaporate. It can be become mist, or snow, or sleet or rain. If you pour it in containers with different shapes it'll conform to those shapes, but through it all it's still water, and it never truly dissappears. Hope that made sense.
 
7th Revenant said:
If reincarnation is possible, then we won't reach enlightenment by effort, we will reach it by luck.

I don't remember who I was in previous life, what mistake or good I made for me to be in this form today. I have no choose whether i'm going to be reincarnated as a Hindu or a Neo-Nazi. So, how can i avoid to repeat the same favorite mistake the same situation occurs? Even if I'm a monk or priest in this life, then there's one in a gajillionth possibility whether I'll reach enlightenment or reincarnated as Buddha, or a god, or a frog. Morally, how can I improve if I don't know or remember what I should learn from?

It can be gross actually. Imagine if your wife today was your previous daughter or sister or even brother. You must be damn lucky to get that eh?
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No, there is no room for luck its all dictated by your karma from past lives, this life, your thoughts & actions in this life, and the future. Up until your life as a human you go through life as plants, insects, & animals. Then your life as a human is the turning point. You either go back through the cycle again or achieve higher levels of consciousness... To not repeat the same mistakes you must live according to the Vedic texts. You're thiking in terms of the body. Its a soul not your brother or sister, etc.
 
Meh, I've always thought of it as a spiritual theory originating from feelings of loss (from dead family members) and a sense of familiarity when one encounters a person similar to another that one has met previously.
 
I never believed in reincarnation. I suppose remembering a "past life" might be just a feeling similar to a dream of some sort.
 
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