Matador
Well-Known Member
Neither of them proved superiority to Kidgaya
Toshiro came out looking better against Mayuri if anything depending on how you interpret the drug's effects
R2 Ulquiorra vs TYBW Kid Toshiro
- Thread starter monkeybananas
- Start date
Neither of them proved superiority to Kidgaya
Toshiro came out looking better against Mayuri if anything depending on how you interpret the drug's effects
monkeybananas
Well-Known Member
Mayuri literally beat him with a drug he just happened to have on him
Kenpachi nearly split him in two, said he held back and Hitsugaya was lucky, and Hitsugaya didn’t contest it.
If you think Hitsugaya beats mayuri or Kenpachi, you do you. That’s not an unreasonable opinion and I could be convinced to see it, but not in his kid form. That’s a conclusion that’s very directly contradicted by the manga, and it’s very rare we get those kinds of direct confirmations.
Matador
Well-Known Member
He was drugged beforehand by Charlotte before they even made eye contact? The man literally roofie'd Toshiro and had him hunched over before he even stepped foot on the battlefield, what the hell are you extrapolating between their combat prowess here MB?
His drug is considered standard equipment, sure, but his zombies aren't in Battledome settings
If you think Mayuri would stomp him in a real fight, cool. But saying Mayuri "proved his superiority" by stabbing an already incapacitated fighter from his previous fight is goofy as hell
He did not "nearly split him in two," he literally came out with a few bruises
Kenpachi is a braggart and his statement is unfounded in itself. If anything, Toshiro effectively tanking a swing from Unpatched Nozarashi is a positive feat for him when you recall that Kenpachi is terrible at holding back and controlling himself, hence the eyepatch
Matador
Well-Known Member
To be clear, I'm not even necessarily disagreeing that Unpatched Shikai Kenpachi can cut a defenseless Toshiro in half either. The issue with your argument is that it tells us nothing about their relative strength. Halibel could literally split him in two with a direct hit, and he literally ended up defeating her handily at full power
Just a very bizarre argument to make based on their interactions. The Mayuri one being especially perplexing
Just a very bizarre argument to make based on their interactions. The Mayuri one being especially perplexing
monkeybananas
Well-Known Member
????
Also, my dude, if Charlotte can fuckin drug hitsugaya, what makes you think Mayuri who is stronger than Charlotte even on a physical level, can't?
Matador
Well-Known Member
Shifting the goalpost hard here
Explain how Mayuri proved superiority without prep/nonstandard equipment/outside help(hint: you can't). Because so far you're effectively admitting there's more nuance to be had here than Mayuri straight up beating him on his own accord
And just for fun, prove this MB
Look how completely unperturbed the usually emotive Toshiro is at his threat
Either way you're out of your mind if you think this proves Zaraki's superiority in itself even if we take it at face-value
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monkeybananas
Well-Known Member
This isn't true because
I always included that drug as part of his "superiority" as part of the original statement.
In addition:
1) You have to prove Charlotte slipped Hitsugaya the drug, which is something you claimed. That was what the ????? was about. Either result however leads to:
2) Assuming 1) is true, Mayuri lasted a lot longer in sword combat than Charlotte, meaning if Charlotte can slip Hitugaya the drug, so can Mayuri himself, with far more ease, and just win. Assuming 1) Is false, then that means Mayuri himself (or again, someone else inferior to Mayuri himself) slipped Hitsugaya the drug, which means again, he can slip Hitsugaya the drug and just win.
It isn't that Mayuri beat Hitsugaya without outside help, but that he can, and that was easily proved (hence the goalpost not moving). There's really not a lot of ambiguity here.
Nice attempt at a logical fallacy, but you still haven't caught me in one.
Holy shit, and I thought you were one of the more reasonable Hitsugaya fans. Wtf happened man?
monkeybananas
Well-Known Member
I didn't argue Renji was better than Kidgaya?Side-tangent after combing through the chapter, anyone else notice Toshiro straight up intercepts Zaraki's lunge at Gerard?
What are the odds RG Renji can replicate this feat?
You must have me confused with one of your various other critics. You seem to have quite a few
Lord Stark
Master of Dripmark
Zaraki stating he could split an on guard Hitsugaya in two is obviously proven false later in the fight. Not only does Hitsugaya tank direct attacks from Vollstandig Gerard who is>>>Patched Kenpachi, but Zaraki himself later hits him again unpatched and in Shikai which, even holding back would be magnitudes more powerful than anything Unpatched Zaraki can dish out.
monkeybananas
Well-Known Member
I would say it's unlikely they were direct hits
Assuming he didn't hold back again...
Matador
Well-Known Member
It's part of his standard arsenal
Your fundamental premise is flawed
Charlotte drugged him by bleeding out all over Toshiro after he was cut down. This isn't going to happen with Mayuri(we don't even know if he has that drug in his system) since he has his sword deflector
For your argument to work, you'd have to prove their battle would play out the same way. If not, you're agreeing their battle dynamic would be different from his fight with Charlotte, hence we can't extrapolate anything which was my point. If Mayuri doesn't get immediately cut down, it diverges from the Charlotte fight and we enter completely new territory since Toshiro wouldn't be drugged by that point
Unless you believe Mayuri could drug him by another method, but you'd have to prove that
Read this quote chain carefully and slowly
Your anti-Toshiro agenda is clearly blinding you to how poorly constructed your argument is
I gave a canonical, clear-cut comparison with Halibel and Toshiro that you straight up ignored. I'm gonna say this again, having the physical prowess to cut Toshiro(or anyone really) in half is insufficient for direct superiority.
The manga isn't that simple
I didn't argue Renji was better than Kidgaya?
That one wasn't meant for you as it's irrelevant to this discussion since both fighters are stronger than RG Renji
But keep that victim complex going
Lord Stark
Master of Dripmark
Lol yeah no that's dumb. The first time I can see the argument, but the second time is obviously a direct hit unless you thing Gerard is totally incompetent. Hitsugaya was a stationary target.
Doesn't matter. The burden of proof that any blow of Kenpachi's while unpatched and in Shikai would be inferior to him being patched and in base is extraordinarily high, considering if he could control himself to that degree it'd eliminate the purpose of the patch. I doubt you have that kind of evidence handy.
monkeybananas
Well-Known Member
I do have somewhat of a bone to pick with people who misuse logic and erroneously call out logical fallacies, and especially the kind that use fancy phrases without understanding their full meaning.
So I'd like you outline the structure of my argument - my premises, argument, and conclusion, and explain the flawed premise, the logical fallacy, and the inaccurate conclusion that results, according to you anyways.
So what is the "fundamental premise" that is flawed?
Prove it.
I know it's hard for you to trust me on this, but I don't have an anti-Toshiro agenda yet.
Okay I mean I guess that was pretty obvious but if you won't accept that maybe you'll accept that Gerard didn't consider Hitsugaya and Byakuya to be opponents worth caring about and focused on Kenpachi?
Like...c'mon dude, idk why you would contest Kenpachi being stronger than Kidgaya. That's retarded. I'm telling you in advance I won't be responding to whatever you have to write to this section, rather would have someone else pick it up. Sometimes saying less is more.
Matador
Well-Known Member
I'm literally talking to a brick wall with hands wtf
Best for both parties for sure
monkeybananas
Well-Known Member
I do, considering he fought against all those VCs and not a single shinigami fatality was incurred.
The burden of proof is on you because a statement establishes that he's capable of cutting Toshiro in half. You introduced this second hit as a contradiction, but it's only a contradiction if you assume that it was a full power blow that was incapable of cutting Toshiro in half (the second part is observed, the first is the premise you have to prove).
In this case, in order for it to be a contradiction, you have to prove it contradicts the statement, especially as it's already been established that Kenpachi's capable of holding back and does in fact hold back some blows against his allies.
monkeybananas
Well-Known Member
Well no, because you kind of...
Said this. So if you were implying I made a strawman, well, I didn't.
Matador
Well-Known Member
Don't be dishonest here MB
Your initial posts obviously infers Zaraki and Mayuri proved their superiority based on their canon interactions, not because of holistic feats against other combatants. The latter I can understand, and even agree with in Zaraki's case. The former is a bad argument, especially in Mayuri's case
Or maybe not. Using the braggart Kenpachi words that he can bifurcate Toshiro as the sole basis is pretty bad
Mar55
The Darkness Rises
It was mixed into the Arrancar's blood, Hitsugaya must've been drugged by cutting down Charlotte.
Matador
Well-Known Member
monkeybananas
Well-Known Member
Me? Never...(no seriously, I'm not though)
Yeah, I mean Kenpachi fighting Gerard who considers him an actual opponent while he considers Toshiro a gnat is in fact proving supriority based on canon interactions. I just didn't frontload my entire argument on you at once, and I figured it was troublesome to continue the "split in half" one so I reverted to a stronger, reserve argument. You think I would ever interally base an actual scaling opinion solely on just one interaction like that?
monkeybananas
Well-Known Member
holy shit, i missed that. my bad.
well...I guess the instant win off the time traveling drug is no longer valid in a closed environment, and hence I can no longer say that Mayuri proved his superiority with canon interactions with child form Hitsugaya. I retract that argument.
I still maintain Mayuri would stomp kidgaya in a hypothetical matchup though
Matador
Well-Known Member
Should have led off with that instead of arguing with me this entire page then
I still think there's a little more nuance to be had in that discussion, but that's a valid argument to make
I still maintain Mayuri would stomp kidgaya in a hypothetical matchup though
You're wrong once again, but I'll let it slide since I don't want you conceding twice in one day
Even if he can beat two captains or more this would at best put him at base Mask's lvl. Renji low. diffed multiple cheers+miles art+VS Mask. So in fact difference even between RG Renji and Mask is giantic, let alone Mask and Gerard. Nothing puts R2 Ulq even at Renji's lvl. RG Renji is dozens times stronger than Rose/Kensei by feats.So you think SE Ulquiorra wouldn't drop, with probably 0 effort, 2 or more HM Masked Bankai Ichigo's?You could argue even R1 Ulquiorra could already do this, and SE Ulquiorra is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> R1 Ulquiorra.
Also the statement about Yammy in the databook is in relation to the Espada ranks only. You don't need to act like an idiot and choose to pretend this isn't the case.
monkeybananas
Well-Known Member
I wanted to keep it concise, but if that premise was being contested it was easier to use another one.
Usually you want to establish at least some common ground with the other person - it makes discussion easier. That is if youre approaching it in good faith (which I was)
Matador
Well-Known Member
Let's not lose track of the big picture here
Toshiro notices Kenpachi about to lunge and straight up intercepts the guy from a distance with zero ambiguity involved. It's even better than his earlier feat of reacting to Gerard
Why has no one told me about this feat yet? I swear I've never seen a single person mention it until now
Toshiro notices Kenpachi about to lunge and straight up intercepts the guy from a distance with zero ambiguity involved. It's even better than his earlier feat of reacting to Gerard
Why has no one told me about this feat yet? I swear I've never seen a single person mention it until now
monkeybananas
Well-Known Member
This isn't really a bigger picture but the potential problem I see with this being a legitimate feat is that the wind up time is ambiguous, and the attack speed slowed once Kenpachi noticed HItsugaya was coming to intercept him.Let's not lose track of the big picture here
Toshiro notices Kenpachi about to lunge and straight up intercepts the guy from a distance with zero ambiguity involved. It's even better than his earlier feat of reacting to Gerard
Why has no one told me about this feat yet? I swear I've never seen a single person mention it until now
I mean it would be wild if Hitsugaya's travel speed is dozens of times Kenpachi's attack speed, but we both know that ain't the case.
Sablés
Well-Known Member
No need.
The zombies are Mayuri's equipment. They are his (re)creations and bound to his will.
They're no different from the drugs he makes and uses at random.
What makes Mayuri powerful are his resources. Before the timeskip, they were - as far as we knew - limited to him having prior knowledge on his enemies. Post timeskip he just pulls out whatever's useful without preparation. The arrancar drugs were just throwaway toxins. You know what Mayuri carries on hand for the privately would be far more lethal.
Sablés
Well-Known Member
I didn't say they were so???
That's nice.
Zangetsu also had free will and defied Ichigo's wishes. Thay doesn't make them a separate power from himself. You do realize that Zanpakutou are sentient right?
Like Senbonzakura literally told Byakuya to fuck off because it fell in love with Pepe.