Part I Sasuke was the anchor who kept Team 7 together, all while promoting teamwork, caring for and looking after his teammates the most

[Nevan]

Sasuke caring about revenge more than his friends: This doesn't make sense at all. Look either you care for your friends or you don't. If Sasuke values revenge over anything else then the lives of his friends mean nothing.

Your entire post is based on this wrong conclusion.

No, just because something is worth more than something else to you that doesn't mean you don't care about the second thing, it's just not as important as your most valuable thing.

If a woman loves her son more than her husband that doesn't mean she doesn't love her husband or if she has to choose between her own life and that of her baby and chooses her baby, that doesn't mean she doesn't want to live.

 

[Aegon Targaryen]

Man, Maru is getting absolutely wrecked. Love to see it

 

[Nevan]

Did Itachi not care about the Uchiha and his parents when he chose to protect Konoha over them, despite manga pages showing his tears while he did so?

 

[Shanal]

95% of the shit you show with these panels are in battle moments where they have to work together. Thats a fact. There is no build up to their friendship they are forced to work together because they were forced on a team it wasn't by choice. Any time they think of past things its the tree climb shit or just Naruto and Sakura standing there. There are no actual friendship moments outside of battle truth be told. I have shown multiple times now what an actual friendship looks in manga with Shikamaru and Choji. Sasuke and Naruto are nothing like that.

Yeah, well, I can't really debate with you about that because when I try to bring up genuine moments of friendship development, you call it all lies and empty because you think SRA actions matter only and nothing before it means shit because of SRA actions.

So let's first cover Sasuke's MS part, which is honestly such a meh argument because you're sitting here debating 10 manga pages don't exist.

Sasuke killing Naruto for MS: Sasuke DID NOT hunt Naruto down to kill him for MS. Fact. That means you can't challenge this point so I hope you understand this. I showed manga proof but conveniently you ignored it. Sasuke would have left the village without ever trying to kill Naruto. Naruto forced the confrontation. With in battle Sasuke suddenly remembers Itachi's words( which was retconned) conveniently here so it was a SPUR OF THE MOMENT thought. Then Sasuke finally admits Naruto is a friend for the first time ever. Totally not convenient writing there. Its not believable. ( My bad for over using the word "convenient" it just works well here.)

We can't get anywhere unless you accept this, because when I bring up genuine friendship moments and build-up, you discard it all away screaming "BUT SASUKE WANTED TO KILL NARUTO IN VOTE, THEY WERE NEVER FRIENDS!"

He might not have chased Naruto or opted for it from the very start, but when he decided to kill Naruto, he did so due to MS. He did so because he considered Naruto his closest friend.

There are billion pages proving that he wanted to kill Naruto, his closest friend, for MS in Part I, during fight, after fight, and in Shippuden. You. Cannot. Deny. It.















That's a Manga fact. There are many pages over it and you cannot deny it. Are you going to sit here and pretend they don't exist?

"Retconned" is a shit, desperate excuse which isn't applicable because the same words were mentioned in Shippuden, too.

Its just as Sasuike said in part two Sasuke didn't kill Naruto on a whim and funny enough he almost did kill Naruto on a whim in vote one. If you can decide to kill someone or not like the wind blowing back and forth then they don't mean anything to you.

Literally in the same page where Sasuke said it was on a whim, he remembered Itachi's words for MS.



Sasuke's character has always been sort of reserved. He isn't open about his feelings, but author portrays them to us through monologues and inner thoughts.

That's how Sasuke is represented the entire series.

The mere fact you're so focused on his words that you completely ignore him LITERALLY thinking about MS and best friend part is very insanely wrong.

The information with MS and Itachi is important here. First Itachi is not a bad character in the sense that he wants to do what he believes is right for Konoha and especially Sasuke. So telling his brother to kill his friend (that would make Sasuke a criminal) for MS would make him bad/evil and screw over his brother. Even if you claim he was trying to hide his true intentions Itachi knows that would ruin Sasuke and he doesn't want that. Danzo is right around the corner licking his chops drooling over Sasuke's Sharingan. This would only help him which again isn't what Itachi wants. Its out of character and not what Kishimoto wants Itachi to be seen as.

Itachi didn't kill Shisui for MS so he would be intentionally lying to his brother sabotaging him. Delivering him up on a silver platter to Danzo. The information is wrong.

Why is it important? Here we go. Kishimoto obviously doesn't want to give the message of killing your friends or loved ones for power... Thats why he never lets Sasuke do it. Its a contradicting message and it was never how MS was achieved with the characters we know. If you are willing to kill your friend for power then you truthfully don't care about your friend. Its why Kishimoto later changed it and showed flashbacks of Itachi saying "come to me when you have the same eyes as me" or whatever.

Itachi's grand plan included Sasuke getting EMS after implanting Itachi's eyes.

That means, Itachi's grand plan thought Sasuke would get MS before his fight.

That means, Itachi's grand plan thought Sasuke would suffer loss of someone he loves dearly before their fight.

And it can't be Itachi himself, because Itachi wanted to keep his facade and lie. Sasuke only got MS from Itachi's death after he learned of Itachi's truth and feeling of loss came over him.

That means, literally the only way for Sasuke to get MS guaranteed was to kill his closest friend or watch him die (not guaranteed)

But anyway, I don't care about Itachi's actions.

Itachi is a fuckface who tortured Sasuke immensely so he can be revenge and power hungry. Itachi is some dude who killed innocent children. Itachi is some guy who let Sasuke go to Orochimaru and risk getting his body stolen from get-go w/o any protection from anyone there. HELL, if SRA didn't happen and Rescue Team was late, Orochimaru would've taken Sasuke's body as he was forced to hop into another before time-limit.

Maybe Itachi did it because he made shit decisions many times over.

Or maybe he did it because he assumed Sasuke would refuse him, thus ensuring he never goes the path of killing friendo for power.

Or maybe this, or maybe that. I don't care.

What the point is that he did it, and that's what matters. You cannot start pretending Manga didn't exist because reasoning doesn't seem super IC to you.

It goes against the message Kishi wants. Any time you bring up that panel it means two things. Kishimoto fucked up his writing and that Sasuke doesn't care about Naruto.

I'm not bringing up shit.

You know what you're saying?

"What Kishi wants and writes in his Manga goes against what I think Kishi wants"

You're literally ignoring a trillion Manga pages proving Sasuke wanted to kill Naruto for MS because you prioritize reasoning shoved into our faces in Manga under your personal head-canons.

Are you really going to pretend those pages in Part I, during and after fight, and Part II as well don't exist to push your agenda? You still fail to disprove them.

Sasuke caring about revenge more than his friends: This doesn't make sense at all. Look either you care for your friends or you don't. If Sasuke values revenge over anything else then the lives of his friends mean nothing.

Lolno. It just means his revenge means too much to him. You look in extremes.

Just because his revenge mattered above all it means anything else meant nothing? Tf kinda logic is that.

Just because I care about one thing more than the other, the other doesn't mean anything? Are you serious?

You want to see it on a smaller scale? Imagine being in a relationship and working towards becoming a doctor. You love your partner, but your goals of becoming doctor matter more to you. It comes to a point where you have to leave your partner if you want to pursue your career, and you do it. Does it mean your relationship meant nothing? Fuck no.

Sasuke's version is just a lot darker and filled with a lot more trauma.

You want to know just how important revenge became?




And look at the way Sasuke left Sakura




That is someone who cares for her, but is choosing revenge over her because he cares for revenge more. As simple as that. It doesn't mean Sakura doesn't mean much for him.

He wanted Naruto dead FOR that revenge. He thought only way to attain power and catch at first was through MS, because Itachi shoved it in his brain that "You come see me when you have same eyes" and shit. The fact Sasuke wanted to kill Naruto proves that he was his closest friend. Otherwise, he'd have given him the same treatment as Sakura (try to knockout then leave).

Ultimately, Sasuke decided against it, and no, it wasn't a sudden change of heart. It was after that entire emotional talk with Naruto and final clash which further emphasized on his feelings for his closest friend.

As I said previously you can't just turn off your feelings and emotions like a switch and Sasuke does this to kill his comrade. Its not realistic. He tries to kill Naruto not long after Itachi shows up. Yes, Itachi fucks up Sasuke bad but its never presented as making Sasuke lose his mind..... Sasuke is fully aware of what the fuck he is doing.. So would a sane person try to kill their friend over jealously? Everyone knows the answer to this. Again this is a very short amount of time for this shift too which makes it even less believable.

He doesn't. He wants to do it so he can kill his closest friend for MS. Posted 10 pages for it. You spam pretend they don't exist and instead apply your very awful head-canon as reasoning.

Did Sasuke think of jealousy when he stabbed Naruto's heart? No, he thought of closest friend and MS.

Did Sasuke think of jealousy when he spared Naruto? No, he thought of closest friend and MS.

Did Sasuke think of jealousy when Naruto brought it all up in Shippuden again? No, he thought of closest friend and MS.

MS part is pretty much canonical fact that you keep ignoring.

Get over this agenda and accept plain as shit, downright obvious stuff written 999 times in Manga instead of playing head-canon mental gymnastics.

Why doesn't Sasuke put all his rage towards Itachi? Instead he was thinking of Naruto and his growth over his hatred for Itachi. Even jealous that Itachi was seeking Naruto. That should have fueled Sasuke's hatred for Itachi even more going after his comrade.

Because he was unhinged and had to go through reality that his growth rate was shit, all while being immensely emotionally pained. All while he saw Naruto's insane growth rate, much higher than him.

Not only that, but his reason to live (Itachi), tossed him aside like trash and only wanted Naruto.

You can see why Naruto became Sasuke's center of wrath lmao. But, again, this was for a brief moment on RT right after Sasuke woke up and everything was fresh. Sasuke gave no fucks about it in VoTE and the entire fight was for MS.

Sasuke should have already known he couldn't have defeated his older brother who was a S class missing nin. He was barely a genin so that just doesn't make sense. You have to chalk that up to blind rage.

He did not know the gap was that huge. He even exclaimed in shock.



You think that Sasuke should've known that he would never catch up to Itachi at this rate.

Sasuke didn't think that. Is Sasuke stupid? Maybe. Or Maybe he just underestimated how big of a deal Itachi is. He was still 13 after all and hadn't seen world outside of Konoha, or even experienced the power gaps between ranks first hand.

You're assuming your knowledge applies to Sasuke. That's so fucked up.

I've noticed this is a core concept in literally all of your argument: This decision the character made isn't super smart and it isn't completely sensible! So I'm going to pretend that this decision was never made and Manga doesn't exist

That's an ass mindset to have.

 

[Luffyfan38]

Excellent thread. Didn't even pick up on some of this stuff myself, very impressed by the detail.

"B-but Sasuke wasn't a friend to Naruto and totally hated Sakura!"

It’s hard to say based off of actions of the past, the dude killed Naruto part 1 fight just to get stronger.

Than he again tried to kill not just Naruto this time but his gal pal Sakura in the process, true friend indeed.

 

[Aegon Targaryen]

It’s hard to say based off of actions of the past, the dude killed Naruto part 1 fight just to get stronger.

Than he again tried to kill not just Naruto this time but his gal pal Sakura in the process, true friend indeed.

Not hard to say at all. The OP explained everything nicely.

 

[Hazuki]

in reality it is rather kakashi who is the one who set the example

at the very beginning, naruto was all about sakura and hated sasuke

sakura was really into sasuke and hated naruto

and sasuke didn't care about the others and just wanted to kill a certain man

kakashi himself reproached sasuke for being egoistic and for considering the others to be a burden

and it's only after kakashi's legendary sentence, that sasuke will change a little bit because his goal is to become stronger quickly and not to have fun

kakashi is the one who made sure that the team 7 is reunited


"In the shinobi world, those that break the written and unwritten rules are deemed trash… but be that as it may… Those that would disregard their comrades so easily are even worse than trash"

before that, sasuke was just an egoist who thought only of himself and who fought in his corner and that's exactly what kakashi reproached him

so no I don't think that sasuke was responsible for the teamwork, it's just that he was more serious and attentive as a student of kakashi, compared to the other two who only thought about love, nonsense or shouting loud

and it's logical, sasuke's goal since the beginning is to become strong very fast, at the beginning he wasn't teamwork at all, and he was very egoistic and after hearing kakashi's words, he understood that in order to become strong like him he had to follow the rules

his life was just much more serious and dramatic than naruto and sasuke and so he made efforts by taking into account the advice of kakashi, while the other two were still on the pro or anti sasuke as they considered that as a game

in direct sasuke showed the example of the team work well after but at the base, he is not at all like that, it is kakashi who shows the example and goes until repeating sentences

"I won't allow my comrades to die. I'll protect you with my life. Trust me."

"In the ninja world, those who break the rules are scum, that's true, but those who abandon their friends are worse than scum."

and these sentences especially reasoned in the head of sasuke who was much more serious and realistic than the two others

 

[Shanal]

in reality it is rather kakashi who is the one who set the example

at the very beginning, naruto was all about sakura and hated sasuke

sakura was really into sasuke and hated naruto

and sasuke didn't care about the others and just wanted to kill a certain man

kakashi himself reproached sasuke for being egoistic and for considering the others to be a burden

and it's only after kakashi's legendary sentence, that sasuke will change a little bit because his goal is to become stronger quickly and not to have fun

kakashi is the one who made sure that the team 7 is reunited


"In the shinobi world, those that break the written and unwritten rules are deemed trash… but be that as it may… Those that would disregard their comrades so easily are even worse than trash"

before that, sasuke was just an egoist who thought only of himself and who fought in his corner and that's exactly what kakashi reproached him

so no I don't think that sasuke was responsible for the teamwork, it's just that he was more serious and attentive as a student of kakashi, compared to the other two who only thought about love, nonsense or shouting loud

and it's logical, sasuke's goal since the beginning is to become strong very fast, at the beginning he wasn't teamwork at all, and he was very egoistic and after hearing kakashi's words, he understood that in order to become strong like him he had to follow the rules

his life was just much more serious and dramatic than naruto and sasuke and so he made efforts by taking into account the advice of kakashi, while the other two were still on the pro or anti sasuke as they considered that as a game

in direct sasuke showed the example of the team work well after but at the base, he is not at all like that, it is kakashi who shows the example and goes until repeating sentences

"I won't allow my comrades to die. I'll protect you with my life. Trust me."

"In the ninja world, those who break the rules are scum, that's true, but those who abandon their friends are worse than scum."

and these sentences especially reasoned in the head of sasuke who was much more serious and realistic than the two others

Of course Kakashi was the one who laid the foundation to the idea as their mentor, playing a role in their growth and mindset.

It was pretty much that Sasuke reacted the most to those ideals and heavily implemented them, sort of taking the role of the anchor that binds the team when it's just the three of them. Basically, he became the student who always took initiative and actively implemented those ideals to look after his teammates (the food test, Sakura's depression, FoD, declaration vs Gaara, etc).

Kind of a de-facto leader'sh member who often took on Kakashi's role in his absence

Not to mention, Sasuke was innately very kind and mature even from Academy age (prior to Itachi's fiasco), so that helped.

Also, I don't think Naruto ever truly "hated" Sasuke or vice versa. Remember, they had a bond and mutual connected, despite limited time together, way before they got on the same time. They related to each other, and found comfort in each other's existence.

 

[Hazuki]

Of course Kakashi was the one who laid the foundation to the idea as their mentor, playing a role in their growth and mindset.

It was pretty much that Sasuke reacted the most to those ideals and heavily implemented them, sort of taking the role of the anchor that binds the team when it's just the three of them. Basically, he became the student who always took initiative and actively implemented those ideals to look after his teammates (the food test, Sakura's depression, FoD, declaration vs Gaara, etc).

Kind of a de-facto leader'sh member who often took on Kakashi's role in his absence

Not to mention, Sasuke was innately very kind and mature even from Academy age (prior to Itachi's fiasco), so that helped.

Yes indeed
I agree with everything you say
it's just that sasuke compared to the other two, was more willing to listen to kakashi's advice and to give an important role to the team spirit
and so it's much easier for him to try to do well because his goal in life is much more serious than the other two

Moreover kakashi himself is much more serious with sasuke, he knows what he wants and knows his background, he is much more focused on him, giving him advices, watching his evolution compared to naruto and sakura

Also, I don't think Naruto ever truly "hated" Sasuke or vice versa. Remember, they had a bond and mutual connected, despite limited time together, way before they got on the same time. They related to each other, and found comfort in each other's existence.

Of course
when I speak about hate, I speak about hate "of naruto" at this moment, meaning that he hates sasuke because he finds him handsome , cool and that he is jealous of him and thus that he is not at all motivated to be serious in the cohesion of a team (except against zabuza)
he has a hard time letting sasuke have the first role, not that he has no team spirit but that he is too jealous of sasuke
so necessarily, at this moment of the manga, he doesn't take seriously the team 7 like sasuke who doesn't have to waste time, he has a precise objective that he is not supposed to have at such a young age

that's why Garaa at this moment of the manga, recognizes himself in Sasuke, both of them are not looking for a good time, training and having fun

but as you say, links will be created directly or indirectly, and in the end even sasuke will end up wanting to sacrifice his life and his project with the only goal to save naruto

in the end, naruto's behavior is quite justified in part 2 (even if it disturbs him a lot and sometimes a bit too much)

 

[Milliardo]

Your entire post is based on this wrong conclusion.

No, just because something is worth more than something else to you that doesn't mean you don't care about the second thing, it's just not as important as your most valuable thing.

If a woman loves her son more than her husband that doesn't mean she doesn't love her husband or if she has to choose between her own life and that of her baby and chooses her baby, that doesn't mean she doesn't want to live.

If someone wants/loves power and revenge over their loved ones how the fuck do they truly care for them? If they are willing to kill their loved one or friends for power how do they care for them? What the actual fuck?

You would have to be fucking delusional to think like this. Its scary that you guys try to defend this.

Your comparison would work better if the woman tried to kill her son or husband or both for money, power, or revenge and then she claimed she kinda cared for them just not as much as the money, power or revenge.




Look even Sasuke said he had to cut ties with them. This is just fucked up thinking.

Did Itachi not care about the Uchiha and his parents when he chose to protect Konoha over them, despite manga pages showing his tears while he did so?

This is the worst example you could use. Itachi was a fucking nutcase that was easily manipulated by Danzo. Thats why he chose the Konoha government over his clan.

Itachi cared so much for his younger brother that he beat the shit out of Sasuke and used Tsukiyomi on him to torture his ass into a coma. But he cared though right?


Nothing about Itachi ever made sense and nobody could ever relate to him. He's just about the worst written character in the manga.


I don't have time for endless debates on this but the moral of the story is if you care more about insignificant things than human lives supposedly friends then no you don't really care for them. Please don't think like this in real life as this is just a manga.

It’s hard to say based off of actions of the past, the dude killed Naruto part 1 fight just to get stronger.

Than he again tried to kill not just Naruto this time but his gal pal Sakura in the process, true friend indeed.

Yeah thats not what friends do. Don't listen to people here...

 

[Shanal]

If someone wants/loves power and revenge over their loved ones how the fuck do they truly care for them? If they are willing to kill their loved one or friends for power how do they care for them? What the actual fuck?

You would have to be fucking delusional to think like this. Its scary that you guys try to defend this.

Your comparison would work better if the woman tried to kill her son or husband or both for money, power, or revenge and then she claimed she kinda cared for them just not as much as the money, power or revenge.




Look even Sasuke said he had to cut ties with them. This is just fucked up thinking.




This is the worst example you could use. Itachi was a fucking nutcase that was easily manipulated by Danzo. Thats why he chose the Konoha government over his clan.

Itachi cared so much for his younger brother that he beat the shit out of Sasuke and used Tsukiyomi on him to torture his ass into a coma. But he cared though right?


Nothing about Itachi ever made sense and nobody could ever relate to him. He's just about the worst written character in the manga.


I don't have time for endless debates on this but the moral of the story is if you care more about insignificant things than human lives supposedly firiends then no you don't really care for them. Please don't think like this in real life as this is just a manga.



Yeah thats not what friends do. Don't listen to people here...

So that's your subjective thinking. That just because Sasuke's desire to take revenge matters over everything, nothing else matters to him.

Yeah, no. That is objectively wrong.

We see on panel of him struggling to pick between revenge and Naruto/Sakura during SRA. He picks revenge, but it was clear he cared a lot for other two.

You wanna say it's not idealistic? Sure. Those things are personal opinion. But don't pretend he didn't care just because he chose revenge. As simple as that.

Also, most of us aren't "defending" it, we're stating a simple fact that he cared for his team. It's just that he cared for revenge more than anything. Much more than just own life, his afterlife, and anything inbetween.

Nice to know you think desire of revenge from having your entire family be murdered by person you trusted the most, only to be forced to experience it thousand of times in a torture chamber at young age, is insignificant lol.

 

[Milliardo]

Subjective?

I think you mean the truth. Nobody tries to kill their close friends for power or revenge. Only a delusional person would do that. I don't care what you do go make another topic on it or ask people in real life they will tell you the same. Go ahead man.


That is not caring for your friends. Fact. If you care for your friend you won't HARM them let alone kill them...... Damn boy Kishi has done a number on you.


Also the panel you keep mentioning Kakashi is the reason Sasuke is thinking of Naruto and Sakura. He tells Sasuke to dwell on it. Sasuke didn't think of them on his own lol. More importantly you should actually read what Kakashi tells Sasuke. Clearly Sasuke didn't take it to heart.

"Chidori was a power I gave to you because you found something important. That power is not to be aimed at a friend or used for revenge."

"You ought to know what that power should be used for"


Yeah you don't do that to friends.. Strange I have to teach you this....



Again there was nothing to choose at that time either. It was only after the sound ninjas showed up that Sasuke had another option. Most important is that there is no build up to any strong feelings because they don't ever spend time together out of battle. Again see Shikamaru and Choji for a real friendship. Shikamaru didn't try to kill his friends for revenge. That would mean he wouldn't care for them.


You don't understand the message that much is very clear and scary. Kishimoto did not want you to think killing friends for power in his manga. Its why that never happened. Thats a fact. Its a contradiction so it would be stupid to write that especially going off friendship themes in a story. Damn man...

Itachi wanted his brother to be hero not a criminal and wanted to die by Sasuke's hand. He DID not plan for Sasuke to kill his friend.

Sasuke himself thought of this on the spur of the moment so it wasn't a strong feeling or anything like that. That should tell you something right there.

The Defacto moment is that Sasuke getting MS had NOTHING to do with NARUTO or killing. That wasn't his closest bond.

One of these days you will get it that you don't kill your friends for power or choose to kill them for revenge and Sasuke well he had to cut ties. You can't have it both ways.

Sasuke and Naruto became real friends at the end of the manga.

 

[Shanal]

Subjective?

I think you mean the truth. Nobody tries to kill their close friends for power or revenge. Only a delusional person would do that. I don't care what you do go make another topic on it or ask people in real life they will tell you the same. Go ahead man.


That is not caring for your friends. Fact. If you care for your friend you won't HARM them let alone kill them...... Damn boy Kishi has done a number on you.


"Chidori was a power I gave to you because you found something important. That power is not to be aimed at a friend or used for revenge."

"You ought to know what that power should be used for"


Yeah you don't do that to friends.. Strange I have to teach you this....



Again there was nothing to choose at that time either. It was only after the sound ninjas showed up that Sasuke had another option. Most important is that there is no build up to any strong feelings because they don't ever spend time together out of battle. Again see Shikamaru and Choji for a real friendship. Shikamaru didn't try to kill his friends for revenge. That would mean he wouldn't care for them.


You don't understand the message that much is very clear and scary. Kishimoto did not want you to think killing friends for power in his manga. Its why that never happened. Thats a fact. Its a contradiction so it would be stupid to write that especially going off friendship themes in a story. Damn man...

Yes, everyone knows Sasuke's path was wrong. No one is saying you should be doing that to your friends. You should not be picking revenge so much over your friends that you're willing to kill them.

Doesn't change or negate the fact that Sasuke chose revenge but still immensely cared for his friends. They did not mean nothing. They just didn't mean as much as his desire for power for revenge. See what I mean?

The mere fact he "wanted to cut bonds" by killing them alone proves that those bonds existed and he cared for them. That was the purpose. Emphasized many times over.

Just because you don't like something, you can't pretend it doesn't exist. Just because you don't like Naruto's obsession with bringing back Sasuke, you can't go around saying he never wanted to bring back Sasuke.

That's like saying "Naruto was never obsessed with bringing back Sasuke. It was all lies and empty talk. Why? Because I don't think his obsession makes a lot of sense!"

See the flaw with your mindset?

Do you think Sasuke's life meant nothing to him, btw? Because he treasured revenge over his life, too. Answer this.

Also, you keep spouting downright objectively wrong Manga facts:

Also the panel you keep mentioning Kakashi is the reason Sasuke is thinking of Naruto and Sakura. He tells Sasuke to dwell on it. Sasuke didn't think of them on his own lol. More importantly you should actually read what Kakashi tells Sasuke. Clearly Sasuke didn't take it to heart.

First, it's not a "panel", it's many. And most of them are Sasuke thinking of them on his own.





Yeah, sure, all of this happening 1-2 days after Kakashi's reminder has to do with that conversation only.

Itachi wanted his brother to be hero not a criminal and wanted to die by Sasuke's hand. He DID not plan for Sasuke to kill his friend.

I mean, Itachi ain't the most sane and best person out there, and 99% of shit he does is questionable.

Hell, you seem to agree with me

Itachi was a fucking nutcase that was easily manipulated by Danzo. Thats why he chose the Konoha government over his clan.

Itachi cared so much for his younger brother that he beat the shit out of Sasuke and used Tsukiyomi on him to torture his ass into a coma. But he cared though right?

Nothing about Itachi ever made sense and nobody could ever relate to him. He's just about the worst written character in the manga.

But when it comes to supporting YOUR agenda, suddenly Itachi is most sane person ever, and things wanted matter over things he did!

We should ignore a billion Manga pages showing Itachi wanted Sasuke to kill his best buddy just because he's such a good boy who never did wrong, am I right?

Don't have double standards, mate. Itachi is a shit character in this regards.

Sasuke himself thought of this on the spur of the moment so it wasn't a strong feeling or anything like that. That should tell you something right there.

False proven by Kishimoto shoving "best friend = MS" in our face when Sasuke tried to kill Naruto, after he spared Naruto, and even in Part II when Naruto brought it all back up again.

The Defacto moment is that Sasuke getting MS had NOTHING to do with NARUTO or killing. That wasn't his closest bond.

Naruto was his closest bond at that moment.

Of course, it changed after Itachi's truth was revealed, but not in VoTE1.

And yes, MS can be achieved via killing as well. The way your closest bond dies doesn't matter. What matters is that you go through emotional pain of having them dead.

One of these days you will get it that you don't kill your friends for power or choose to kill them for revenge and Sasuke well he had to cut ties. You can't have it both ways.

I already agree with it. Literally everyone does. Even EoS Sasuke does. This argument isn't about what's right or wrong, but about what happened and the simple fact that you putting revenge above all doesn't mean everything else is insignificant. It just means you're too desperate for revenge.

Just because it's wrong doesn't mean it's not understandable. Even Naruto understood it, but he didn't agree with it, because it's just wrong.

Glad you agree that Sasuke had to "cut" the ties by killing them, though, thus agreeing that he had those bonds and ties, and he was desperately trying to get them off for the sake of his revenge.

If he never cared, he won't have those bonds to begin with. If he never cared, he won't be struggling b/w Team 7 and Revenge pre-SRA. If he didn't care, he wouldn't want to kill Naruto for MS.

Etc, etc, etc, etc, list goes on.

Even Kakashi agrees with me! As you said:

"Chidori was a power I gave to you because you found something important."

Sasuke did find something important. His newfound family that meant a lot to him. Ultimately, he got blinded by revenge, but pretending they never mattered immensely is a joke.

 

[Danisor]

Well said!

 

[Milliardo]

I love how you ignore Kakashi's words of not using Chidori on a friend. Thats a manga fact you are ignoring because it shuts you down. Its not about the wrong path or any garbage like that its about caring for your friends....


You have no scan of any character killing for MS. There is only Itachi's words which are bullshit because he didn't do that and killing someone means you don't care for them as you are ending their life....

If you care for a life you don't try to end it... Why is this so fucking hard to understand???

Kakashi's words back what I'm saying not you. The found something important is what Sasuke stopped caring about hence he does the opposite of what Kakashi says to do.. PROTECT them. This is not my opinion but fact and manga fact.

You are running from this just like you always do in these arguments.


See your whole argument would work a lot better if Sasuke didn't try to kill Naruto(obviously) to help achieve his revenge. In this case it can't be both ways because Sasuke is trying to kill Naruto... Sasuke could choose revenge and still care for his friends but that doesn't work if he tries to kill them.

Real simple killing=not caring.

You think Naruto wants to die? You think Sakura wants to die? You think Sasuke selfishly choosing to harm them for something that has nothing to do with them is his right? You are not understanding the message at all. You are failing hard bro.

MS is about CARING for a loved one not killing them damn man. How thick can one be?


Like I said the panel you showed with Kakashi as I was talking about that one specifically (again obviously) Kakashi told him to dwell on it. And thats all there is too just thinking and him picturing them no real friendship moments. We seen what they do in part one and there isn't any friendship moments outside of battle.

I don't get what you are mean with Itachi either... I didn't flip flop with him for any agenda. Its manga fact that he cares for his brother. Now do I agree with how it was portrayed? Fuck no Itachi is a horribly written character.

This is why I said Kishi fucked up because Itachi is lying to his brother and could set him on the path of being a criminal. Itachi wouldn't do that even if he was trying to hide his true intentions.


Part one Naruto and Sakura are basically like work buddies to Sasuke that he stopped caring about. They become true friends at the end of the manga.

Lastly stop treating revenge like its some major cause.. Its all about Sasuke not saving the world or his village or anything like that. Its down right selfish to choose what you want and killing your friends in the process. You are damn right that means you don't care for them.

Kishimoto's message is not killing friends for power. Its the OPPOSITE of that. I'm trying very hard to teach you this. I keep hoping you will understand it one of these times. Heres hoping.

 

[Shanal]

I love how you ignore Kakashi's words of not using Chidori on a friend. Thats a manga fact you are ignoring because it shuts you down. Its not about the wrong path or any garbage like that its about caring for your friends....

Yes, you're not supposed to use Chidori on your friends. That's why what Sasuke did was wrong path, and that's why we call it falling to darkness lol.

I'm not ignoring it, we all know Sasuke was wrong in the end. Idk why you pretend we're on his side.

See your whole argument would work a lot better if Sasuke didn't try to kill Naruto(obviously) to help achieve his revenge. In this case it can't be both ways because Sasuke is trying to kill Naruto... Sasuke could choose revenge and still care for his friends but that doesn't work if he tries to kill them.

Real simple killing=not caring.

At this point, your entire argument has devolved into denying everything I throw at you for this, then?

Yeah, Sasuke at first thought only way to get power for his revenge was to kill best friend for MS.

That's what Itachi made him think. Idk why he did, but he did. Itachi is a retard and that's what he made Sasuke believe. This is just one of many questionable shit Itachi has done.

So when Naruto came for him, Sasuke just attempted to off him, his best friend, for MS.

He cared enough to consider him his best friend

He cared more for revenge. And he thought killing Naruto, his best friend, would help him get revenge.

If you think just because he was prioritizing revenge, it means he didn't care for anything else or anyone else, you're objectively wrong manga-wise.

I like how you ignored my question about Sasuke putting revenge above his life. Does he not care for his own life?




Your entire perspective that just because revenge matters above all, nothing else matters, is very narrow minded and bad way to look at things. I'm not saying it's right to prioritize revenge, but you can still care about things that you're willing to sacrifice for revenge.

You think Naruto wants to die? You think Sakura wants to die? You think Sasuke selfishly choosing to harm them for something that has nothing to do with them is his right? You are not understanding the message at all. You are failing hard bro.

No. We all know what Sasuke did was wrong. No one disagrees. Idk why you spam bring up moral shit as if we are siding with Sasuke.

MS is about CARING for a loved one not killing them damn man. How thick can one be?

Except that's not what Sasuke was told and made to believe by his older brother.

This is why I said Kishi fucked up because Itachi is lying to his brother and could set him on the path of being a criminal. Itachi wouldn't do that even if he was trying to hide his true intentions.

But he did. Because he's fucked up and does fucked up shit. Like, 80% of the things he did for Sasuke were fucked up. You, yourself said that Itachi's actions are fucked. No need to pretend those actions didn't exist.

Lastly stop treating revenge like its some major cause.. Its all about Sasuke not saving the world or his village or anything like that. Its down right selfish to choose what you want and killing your friends in the process.

Yes.

You are damn right that means you don't care for them.]

No. It means that you're too desperate for revenge that you're willing to sacrifice your own life, life of ones you care, your happiness and anything in-between for it.

It's wrong, but it doesn't mean you don't care.

And it specially doesn't mean Sasuke didn't care during during CE,

Kishimoto's message is not killing friends for power. Its the OPPOSITE of that. I'm trying very hard to teach you this. I keep hoping you will understand it one of these times. Heres hoping.

We get it, sensei. No one has ever argued that what Sasuke did was right. We know it's wrong and you shouldn't do it.

Idk why you've been getting so hung up over it and spam bringing it up for last 20 posts, even after people tell you otherwise.

Like I said the panel you showed with Kakashi as I was talking about that one specifically (again obviously) Kakashi told him to dwell on it. And thats all there is too just thinking and him picturing them no real friendship moments. We seen what they do in part one and there isn't any friendship moments outside of battle.

I also showed you multiple scans of him thinking about them days after Kakashi's lecture and looking sad and conflicted, but ok...

And there are a good few in Waves Arc and in CE. And the battle friendship moments mean just as much, anyway. I've showed many, but you start pretending all those don't matter and are empty because of SRA killing lol

Part one Naruto and Sakura are basically like work buddies to Sasuke

Yeah, no. There are billion scans saying or showing otherwise, this is just off of my head.

 

[Milliardo]

The way Sasuke went about revenge he really didn't care about his own life. Thats obvious to anyone. Why do you think Kakashi tried talk him out of it? You just keep ignoring his words because it shuts you down.

You really do ignore Kakashi's words. Ask yourself why does Kakashi want Sasuke to use Chidori to protect his friends? Why is it?

Because thats the right thing to do? Sure but most importantly it shows Sasuke values their life and doesn't want to lose them... Using chidori on them means the opposite! How can anyone get this so wrong???

When Naruto fights Gaara to protect Sasuke and Sakura he only gets STRONGER and fights HARDER.

Just keep ignoring the messages though anything to win a debate on the internet.


It didn't have to be this way.... Just like Shikamaru's revenge Sasuke could have done it without harming his friends..

You have no counter to this thats why you have to ignore it.


The whole desperation point doesn't even make sense because Sasuke had plenty of time Itachi wasn't going anywhere. There was NO reason to rush. Lol Sasuke is rushing to kill his friends for revenge because....? Theres nothing.


It was a spur of the moment thought to try to kill Naruto for MS thats a manga FACT! Its a FACT that was the first time Sasuke ever even called him a friend. Very strange for characters that were suppose to be close friends already.

None of that would have even happened if Naruto never caught up to him. Sasuke was going to OROCHIMARU for better or worse for revenge NOT Naruto.

No amount of tree walk panels or images of Naruto and Sakura in his head will change that. Like I said 95% of it is battle moments which they HAVE to work together. It would be outside of battle in which you can see their true feelings which Sasuke and Naruto never hang out or say anything even close to friendly. Neither one has been to the other's apartment. Kakashi has to call meetings to get them all together.

No other character can speak for them and as they say ACTIONS speak louder than words.


I can see now with the Itachi point you only accept what suits you in the manga. Thats a double standard. It's a manga fact Itachi cared for his brother. Like I said it was portrayed horribly. I don't pretend anything the author went too hard with him on Sasuke.

Its funny because what you are accussing me of, you are doing the same exact thing with Itachi. You ignore what the manga claims because his actions show otherwise. Its the same thing with me and Sasuke.


To care for someone means you have THEIR interest in mind. Sasuke putting HIS INTEREST above his friend's interest(as they don't want to die obviously) means the opposite. Its means he's selfish.

Its not so much about right or wrong which you keep trying to muddle in to my point. Look up what the words actually mean.

Why you are at it look up what a retcon is damn.. This manga is full of them. Kishi has contradicted himself many of times.


I know part one well and nothing you have shown is new to me. I'm not in the minority here and the author knows he fucked up. You can believe whatever you want just realize it isn't always the truth.

 

[Milliardo]

Here I will do it for you.


spur-of-the-moment

adjective

1. done without planning in advance; impulsive.
   
   
   
   
   car·ing
   /ˈkeriNG/
   
   adjective
   1. displaying kindness and concern for others.
      "a caring and invaluable friend"
      
      
      
      
      ret·con
      /ˈretkän/
      
      noun
      1. (in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
         "we're given a retcon for Wilf's absence from Donna's wedding in ‘The Runaway Bride’: he had Spanish Flu"
         
      verb
      revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.
      "I think fans get more upset when characters act blatantly out of established type, or when things get retconned"
      
      
      

 

[Shanal]

Why do you think Kakashi tried talk him out of it? You just keep ignoring his words because it shuts you down.

That's the first thing I quoted and addressed about your post lol. Also, I can tell you're typing your reply BEFORE you even read my entire response. Try not to do that... it makes things very jumbled, because you say something that I've already mentioned later on.

Or better yet, please do it quote by quote basis.

Because thats the right thing to do? Sure but most importantly it shows Sasuke values their life and doesn't want to lose them... Using chidori on them means the opposite! How can anyone get this so wrong???

It means the life of his friend is valued less than desire of revenge, something Kakashi said Chidori ain't for.

It didn't have to be this way.... Just like Shikamaru's revenge Sasuke could have done it without harming his friends..

Except, Itachi shoved it in Sasuke's mind that only way to get the power is through MS- and Sasuke should "See him again when he has same eyes".

It was a spur of the moment thought to try to kill Naruto for MS thats a manga FACT! Its a FACT that was the first time Sasuke ever even called him a friend. Very strange for characters that were suppose to be close friends already.

He might not have acted on it from get-go or before fight started, but only reason he went for the kill was because of MS.

That's also a Manga fact.

We can go back and forth on this. I'm agreeing with you that he didn't act on it from get-go, but you can't seem to agree with simple Manga fact shown on 30 pages that he tried to kill Naruto for MS?

It's like seeing a squirrel and adamantly calling it a horse no matter what.

Also, what did you expect him to do, anyway? S4 came for him to get him out. Did you expect him to walk up to Naruto's apartment and start an entire fight in middle of Konoha and get arrested? First thing first, he was getting out of there. Naruto chasing after him gave him the actual opportunity to seek out MS, like his brother has stuffed in his mind, for power.

@Bolded, that's shit logic. People don't always have to scream "YOU'RE MY FRIEND" to people they're close to. Sasuke is reserved- and Naruto (at least P1) is stubborn. They don't express their feelings verbally all the time.

I can see now with the Itachi point you only accept what suits you in the manga. Thats a double standard. It's a manga fact Itachi cared for his brother. Like I said it was portrayed horribly. I don't pretend anything the author went too hard with him on Sasuke.

Its funny because what you are accussing me of, you are doing the same exact thing with Itachi. You ignore what the manga claims because his actions show otherwise. Its the same thing with me and Sasuke.

I've never pretended that a single action didn't exist. I don't retcon stuff to support argument.

Everything that happened in Manga, happened.

Just because it doesn't make sense, trying to run around screaming "Retcon! I say retcon!" is lazy.

Itachi did care for Sasuke, but all the stupid shit he did, he did. We can't pretend they don't exist.

Even if you believe it was retconned, then you have to excuse the entire scene caused by it.

Kishimoto wrote Sasuke wanting to kill Naruto over MS due to Itachi's words. If you think Itachi's words were retconned, then the entire prospect of P1 Sasuke killing Naruto is retconned, too, because bestfriend = MS is the core part of it.

See why it doesn't make a lick of sense?

To care for someone means you have THEIR interest in mind. Sasuke putting HIS INTEREST above his friend's interest(as they don't want to die obviously) means the opposite. Its means he's selfish.

Sasuke cared for his personal desire more than he cared for anything else, yes it's true.

To Sasuke, his desire of revenge mattered above all. Above his friends, above his life, above everything.

But you look at things too extreme.

So, someone who is selfish about a personal desire can't care for anything else outside of it?

If you put a personal desire above everything in life, nothing else in life matters at all?

Just because he put a personal desire above anything else in life, it does not mean his care for everything else was 0.

Those are insane way to look at things lol.

Are you saying Sasuke is a someone who prioritized revenge above all? Yes.
Are you saying he was willing to throw away anything for revenge? Yes.

But none of that means everything else meant nothing to him or he felt nothing towards any of them. His feelings for his friends were just nowhere on the level of his feelings for revenge- but those feelings for his friends existed nonetheless.

If they didn't exist, he'd not be thinking of them (and then his ambition), all while repeating "No..." in frustration, conflicted.



If they didn't exist, he'd not be looking at their picture, saddened before leaving.



if they didn't exist, he'd not be thinking of them when Sakura mentioned loneliness.



If they didn't exist, Sasuke wouldn't have thanked Sakura- compliments and gratitude are something he shows rarely.



If they didn't exist, Sasuke wouldn't be thinking of killing Naruto for MS- because only killing your best friend can give you it.

And yes, yes, we know Kakashi reminded him of his friends. But Kakashi can't make him sit there alone, looking conflicted as he thinks about Itachi and Naruto/Sasuke, before screaming curses in the face of this choice he has to make lol.

No amount of tree walk panels or images of Naruto and Sakura in his head will change that. Like I said 95% of it is battle moments which they HAVE to work together. It would be outside of battle in which you can see their true feelings which Sasuke and Naruto never hang out or say anything even close to friendly. Neither one has been to the other's apartment. Kakashi has to call meetings to get them all together.

Look, if you want to argue their relationship and how meaningful it was in P1, I can do that.

But the thing is, if we get to that point, and you start saying "NONE IF IT MATTERS! EMPTY SCENE! EMPTY TALK! CUZ SASUKE IN SRA TRIED TO KILL NARUTO!", then it's just pointless lol.

That's why I've been sticking to that and avoiding this. Last time I brought up moments of CE, you didn't even try to debate- you just flat out started saying they were lies because of SRA. Because you refuse to accept the fact that Sasuke's feelings and priorities were greatly different in SRA as compared to rest of P1.

You think Sasuke's life didn't matter to him, right? I wonder if you think his life didn't matter to him prior to SRA, too, just because of how he went about revenge during SRA lol

SRA didn't change feelings for his friends, anyway. It just made his revenge much more important than anything.

 

[Milliardo]

I don't quote you anymore because you don't address everything I type. As I said its too much work just to be ignored.

Again I don't ignore anything in the manga or "retcon" things as you say. Thats not how you use the word btw..
See I already told you that I understand Kishi tried to portray them as friends. I'm not denying that...... I believe he failed by two standards its not anything close to a real friendship and going beyond that its not relatable at all. Stop ignoring things damn. This is what I'm talking about.

So when you show me the same panels over and over again of Sasuke thinking of Naruto and Sakura it makes no sense to me because there is no weight behind that. They don't actually have any real friendship moments and its sad. Again see Shikamaru and Choji for a real friendship. These are just side characters too.


Chidori is a power for protecting your friends because you care for them. Thats the message Kakashi is trying to get across to Sasuke. Trying to kill someone when they don't want to die is not caring for them. Especially if you don't have to or going off spur of the moment thoughts.

No one would say otherwise on this because its the truth. You are trying to use a manga narrative to force this as proof of friendship when not even the manga is it acceptable because nobody has done that. Not even the guy who speaks it lol.

It goes along with I'm saying too its FAR from realistic and not relatable at all. Its why many many people know their relationship is garbage. Rightfully so too.


Bro understand what a retcon is... Its means previous information is wrong because its been changed. Its outdated.. So what I'm saying makes perfect sense to people that understand english.

Itachi told Sasuke to come to him when Sasuke had the same eyes as him but he didn't say that was the only way. That would be another lie anyways.

Sasuke himself knows too because hes tying seek OROCHIMARU to better himself.... Not MS.

When Naruto got to him at Vote Sasuke told Naruto to leave him alone... See? He didn't even want to be bothered by the orange one. There was no strong emotion or thinking of MS.

It was a SPUR OF THE MOMENT THOUGHT! Do you understand? Or did you ignore(you ignore shit alot) the definition? Its on a whim as he said. That means randomly. If its random then there is NO STRONG EMOTIONS BEHIND IT!

What does MS involve again oh yeah strong emotions.... These are facts not my opinion. Look at how Tobirama describes the Sharingan.


So if Sasuke did kill Naruto he would not have got MS. He would have killed Naruto for nothing and just walked off. Thats why I told you it proves he doesn't care.

I thinks its funny because you are trying to use an evil act to prove they are friends. It really is so crazy


It goes against the message of becoming stronger BY PROTECTING YOUR FRIENDS.



Your whole extreme argument doesn't make sense either. See Sasuke has options to help him fight and kill Itachi. He knows this too thats why he went to Orochimaru. So its not a all or nothing thing. MS is not the only way and he didn't believe that.

So Sasuke chose to kill Naruto when he didn't have too. That tells us he didn't care that and it being a random thought... This tremendously hurts your argument. I know you will ignore this because it shuts you down. Fine. Still you need to understand the truth of the matter and why people (as well as the author) see them as crazy.


Personal desire? Your explanation on this is fucking hilarious.

So if someone kills their friend for money for example they still cared for their friend just not as much as the money? Ok... Yeah lets uh put percentages on it. The person in this example cared for the money like 95% but still did care for his friend a good 5% no doubt it.

They would say as much at the funeral.

Fortunately thats not how you treat or view human lives. Nobody is ever going to relate to that.

These characters are suppose to be seen as like people not objects. You don't weight them so lightly.

This wasn't a be all end all moment it was a spur of the moment thought(explained several times now) so Sasuke doesn't even have the excuse of there being no other way nor did he think that. My point stands on this and you don't have a leg to stand on. Its why you have to promote a narrative that was a lie.


Moving on Naruto was surprised Sasuke called him a friend. Friends aren't embarrassed to acknowledge one another's friendship this is obvious to anyone. They hang out and have good friendship memories together to look back on. Sasuke and Naruto don't have that. They need filler for that shit lol. Thats how desperate they were in the anime.


Buddy putting percentages/numbers on friendships compared to revenge is just plain fucking crazy and truthfully despicable. Sasuke saying he never wanted to see what happened to his family ever again and people like that(in the chunin exams arc) then trying to kill Naruto a month later is gonna make people think he is full of shit. Sorry there is no way around that.

Look man you are not going to change my thought process on this. I've been here since 2009 and thought the same thing then so yeah... A lot of people did and rightfully so. Kishi himself wished he would have developed their friendship properly. Again that means far more to me than whatever you believe.

The fact that you have to limit their friendship to a very small part in part one alone in this topic tells people all they need to know. I could still debate you pre Itachi like you originally wanted too. Its stated in the manga their relationship got worse after the wave arc and their teamwork was trash because of it. They only ever spend time together on missions or chunin exams because they HAVE TO.

I think you know there is truth to what I'm saying but you don't want to admit it. Thats ok.

 

[Capa13]

Yes.

 

[Shanal]

I don't quote you anymore because you don't address everything I type. As I said its too much work just to be ignored.

Again I don't ignore anything in the manga or "retcon" things as you say. Thats not how you use the word btw..
See I already told you that I understand Kishi tried to portray them as friends. I'm not denying that...... I believe he failed by two standards its not anything close to a real friendship and going beyond that its not relatable at all. Stop ignoring things damn. This is what I'm talking about.

So when you show me the same panels over and over again of Sasuke thinking of Naruto and Sakura it makes no sense to me because there is no weight behind that. They don't actually have any real friendship moments and its sad. Again see Shikamaru and Choji for a real friendship. These are just side characters too.


Chidori is a power for protecting your friends because you care for them. Thats the message Kakashi is trying to get across to Sasuke. Trying to kill someone when they don't want to die is not caring for them. Especially if you don't have to or going off spur of the moment thoughts.

No one would say otherwise on this because its the truth. You are trying to use a manga narrative to force this as proof of friendship when not even the manga is it acceptable because nobody has done that. Not even the guy who speaks it lol.

It goes along with I'm saying too its FAR from realistic and not relatable at all. Its why many many people know their relationship is garbage. Rightfully so too.


Bro understand what a retcon is... Its means previous information is wrong because its been changed. Its outdated.. So what I'm saying makes perfect sense to people that understand english.

Itachi told Sasuke to come to him when Sasuke had the same eyes as him but he didn't say that was the only way. That would be another lie anyways.

Sasuke himself knows too because hes tying seek OROCHIMARU to better himself.... Not MS.

When Naruto got to him at Vote Sasuke told Naruto to leave him alone... See? He didn't even want to be bothered by the orange one. There was no strong emotion or thinking of MS.

It was a SPUR OF THE MOMENT THOUGHT! Do you understand? Or did you ignore(you ignore shit alot) the definition? Its on a whim as he said. That means randomly. If its random then there is NO STRONG EMOTIONS BEHIND IT!

What does MS involve again oh yeah strong emotions.... These are facts not my opinion. Look at how Tobirama describes the Sharingan.


So if Sasuke did kill Naruto he would not have got MS. He would have killed Naruto for nothing and just walked off. Thats why I told you it proves he doesn't care.

I thinks its funny because you are trying to use an evil act to prove they are friends. It really is so crazy


It goes against the message of becoming stronger BY PROTECTING YOUR FRIENDS.



Your whole extreme argument doesn't make sense either. See Sasuke has options to help him fight and kill Itachi. He knows this too thats why he went to Orochimaru. So its not a all or nothing thing. MS is not the only way and he didn't believe that.

So Sasuke chose to kill Naruto when he didn't have too. That tells us he didn't care that and it being a random thought... This tremendously hurts your argument. I know you will ignore this because it shuts you down. Fine. Still you need to understand the truth of the matter and why people (as well as the author) see them as crazy.


Personal desire? Your explanation on this is fucking hilarious.

So if someone kills their friend for money for example they still cared for their friend just not as much as the money? Ok... Yeah lets uh put percentages on it. The person in this example cared for the money like 95% but still did care for his friend a good 5% no doubt it.

They would say as much at the funeral.

Fortunately thats not how you treat or view human lives. Nobody is ever going to relate to that.

These characters are suppose to be seen as like people not objects. You don't weight them so lightly.

This wasn't a be all end all moment it was a spur of the moment thought(explained several times now) so Sasuke doesn't even have the excuse of there being no other way nor did he think that. My point stands on this and you don't have a leg to stand on. Its why you have to promote a narrative that was a lie.


Moving on Naruto was surprised Sasuke called him a friend. Friends aren't embarrassed to acknowledge one another's friendship this is obvious to anyone. They hang out and have good friendship memories together to look back on. Sasuke and Naruto don't have that. They need filler for that shit lol. Thats how desperate they were in the anime.


Buddy putting percentages/numbers on friendships compared to revenge is just plain fucking crazy and truthfully despicable. Sasuke saying he never wanted to see what happened to his family ever again and people like that(in the chunin exams arc) then trying to kill Naruto a month later is gonna make people think he is full of shit. Sorry there is no way around that.

Look man you are not going to change my thought process on this. I've been here since 2009 and thought the same thing then so yeah... A lot of people did and rightfully so. Kishi himself wished he would have developed their friendship properly. Again that means far more to me than whatever you believe.

The fact that you have to limit their friendship to a very small part in part one alone in this topic tells people all they need to know. I could still debate you pre Itachi like you originally wanted too. Its stated in the manga their relationship got worse after the wave arc and their teamwork was trash because of it. They only ever spend time together on missions or chunin exams because they HAVE TO.

I think you know there is truth to what I'm saying but you don't want to admit it. Thats ok.

I'll keep this response brief to address the elephant in the room.

See, the issue is that I'm not ignoring things. Idc if you think their friendship is unrealistic. I disagree, but that's not what this is about. My issue with you is that you're denying blatant stuff.

A simple fact that only reason Sasuke tried to kill Naruto was for MS.

It's stated and shown during the fight, during the stab, after the clash, and even after timeskip. Nothing changes that.

No one cares about how MS is gained. Or knowledge earned later on. What we care about how Sasuke thought MS was gained. And that was to kill his best friend. Nothing more, nothing less. Anything that we were told afterward was not knowlege available to Sasuke.

Even if you want to say Itachi's words to Sasuke were retconned, you can't change the fact that he tried to kill Naruto due to knowledge from those words.

If you can accept that simple fact, then I can actually respect your opinion. Whether their friendship is good or not is up to opinion and subjective- but this? This is objective fact. If you're denying manga to push for agenda, that's argument in bad faith.

There was no strong emotion or thinking of MS.

When you say things like this- THIS is in bad faith. Literally ignoring the fact that Sasuke thinks of MS every time talk or action related to killing Naruto occurs in the fight, afterward, or even in early Shippuden.

You wanna say the knowledge about MS was changed? Be my guest. But Kishimoto wrote this fight with the past knowledge, not new one, so only reason Sasuke tried to kill Naruto was, as stated in billion pages, MS.

You wanna say it's not realistic to consider Naruto his best friend in that he situation? Be my guest. Yet don't pretend that wasn't the factual case in manga.

Your opinion on "if you care more for revenge than wellbeing of your friends, you don't care for them AT ALL" is something I don't agree with among other things, but we literally cannot argue at it because that's purely subjective, so only real option is to agree to disagree, as it's one pure opinion on emotions vs another pure opinion on emotions.

But this? This is not a subjective debate lol.

 

[Milliardo]

What you clearly don't understand is Sasuke deluded himself into believing a lie. Thats why the whole thing only proves he didn't care...

You only focus on Sasuke trying to kill Naruto as friend because you believe that backs your point but you don't look or try to understand the whole picture.

It is important how MS is obtained because it shows the information in part one was wrong for multiple reasons. You have to care for the person which means they would never want to kill them and nobody did that not even Itachi. Not even grandaddy Uchiha Madara himself.

This means what your are saying isn't concrete. Sasuke rushing to kill his friend for power shows the opposite of what obtaining MS is about.

Your words would have more power to them if it wasn't shown to be the opposite but that is not the case. Morally wrong notwithstanding.


People don't use outdated information as a fact when newer information contradicts it. I know your doing it because its one of the few things you have as Sasuke and Naruto didn't do much together in part one even.


There is no bad faith bro... Sasuke thought of MS in the middle of fight that he didn't originally want.... How am I suppose to believe there is a strong emotional build up to that point? Even Sasuke talks of not killing Naruto on a whim. Its why I keep saying its a spur of the moment thought. Who the fuck would think of shit like this in the middle of a fight?

If Sasuke planned for it thinking on it for quite a while and hunted Naruto down afterwards that would put a lot more weight to it but thats not what happened.


I have never denied what happened in the manga. I don't understand why you think this. People have brought up VOTE on more than one occasion same as you to try and prove their friendship but I have explained how thats flawed. You want to buy into ok but I will continue to see the whole picture.

Your bottom paragraph where you quoted my words, I stand by them. Still going beyond that Sasuke had other options that is very clear. It wasn't revenge or friendship Sasuke could have had BOTH. With that knowledge in mind why would you think in your head he still cared??? That puzzles the fuck out of me..

I don't understand your last words at all. I have never denied Sasuke killing Naruto for MS or saying Naruto was his friend. You won't be able to quote me on that because it never happened...

What I'm saying is Sasuke's thinking at this time is flawed and the basis for it is a lie. Its why I believe he doesn't care well beyond having other options as well.

I think its fucked up you believe their friendship is realistic even. Damn. Thankfully you would be in the minority on that. People don't think much of it because its a work of fiction.


Putting this debate to the side for a moment I think the time you spent making the topic is great and I would enjoy seeing other topics by you Shanal. I do apologize for taking over your topic I know topic creators don't like shit like that. The maru guy has done that to me before and it is very annoying. He has me blocked though so maybe thats for the best.

I know I won't change your thoughts on this subject nor will you change mine. I just want to say no matter what is said here I don't actually have any ill will towards you. Debates get heated but they are just words. This is just a fun debate battle for me on the internet nothing more.

I have another topic in mind thanks to this topic actually.

 

[Sieves]

Yeah Sasuke was great in part 1, and it’s easy to see what happened for things to go down hill. Sasuke was traumatized. Heavily. So when he saw Itachi again and got choke slammed he was completely re-traumatized. The guy didn’t need just a lecture from Kakashi he would’ve needed a village wide intervention.

 

[Aegon Targaryen]

Yeah Sasuke was great in part 1, and it’s easy to see what happened for things to go down hill. Sasuke was traumatized. Heavily. So when he saw Itachi again and got choke slammed he was completely re-traumatized. The guy didn’t need just a lecture from Kakashi he would’ve needed a village wide intervention.

This.

 

[Milliardo]

Yeah Sasuke was great in part 1, and it’s easy to see what happened for things to go down hill. Sasuke was traumatized. Heavily. So when he saw Itachi again and got choke slammed he was completely re-traumatized. The guy didn’t need just a lecture from Kakashi he would’ve needed a village wide intervention.

Naw what Sasuke needed was for someone to back what he wanted. Sasuke was great in part two as well leading up til the Kage summit arc. Then he was great for the wrong reasons.

 

[Ashi]

“Your parents grounding you means they don’t love you. Good parents like to see their kids happy and grounding them makes sad. So your parents don’t love you otherwise they wouldn’t do it” - Milliardo probably

 

[Shanal]

You only focus on Sasuke trying to kill Naruto as friend because you believe that backs your point but you don't look or try to understand the whole picture.

For the record, I'm not trying to bring VoTE to prove their friendship. You were the one who tried to bring up VoTE to disprove their friendship. I hardly gave a fuck about it at first.

I was content with discussing their relationship build-up in Part I, you tried to act like a lot of it was empty talk because of SRA and deflected the entire debate to simply VoTE. Can't really discuss their relationship or whether it was okay'ish developed or not if you do that.

It is important how MS is obtained because it shows the information in part one was wrong for multiple reasons. You have to care for the person which means they would never want to kill them and nobody did that not even Itachi. Not even grandaddy Uchiha Madara himself.

This means what your are saying isn't concrete. Sasuke rushing to kill his friend for power shows the opposite of what obtaining MS is about.

You're caring about what MS is about.

You're not caring about what Sasuke thought and what Itachi told us what MS was about.

You're taking information 100s of chapters after VoTE fight into consideration, all while not caring much for the motivations stemming from information DURING that fight.

Only thing Manga provided and Sasuke knew, and Itachi said, was that MS is achieved through killing your best friend during VoTE. Nothing more, nothing less. And that's what Sasuke tried to do. Nothing more, nothing less.

People don't use outdated information as a fact when newer information contradicts it. I know your doing it because its one of the few things you have as Sasuke and Naruto didn't do much together in part one even.

Except, the entire scene is based around "outdated" information.

If the outdated information didn't exist, Sasuke would never try to kill Naruto.

If you pretend the outdated information doesn't exist, you have to pretend that Sasuke's killing intent vs Naruto in VoTE fight didn't exist.

You can't retcon one thing while pretending events caused by that thing only aren't retconned. That's insanely fucked up.

There is no bad faith bro... Sasuke thought of MS in the middle of fight that he didn't originally want.... How am I suppose to believe there is a strong emotional build up to that point? Even Sasuke talks of not killing Naruto on a whim. Its why I keep saying its a spur of the moment thought. Who the fuck would think of shit like this in the middle of a fight?

If Sasuke planned for it thinking on it for quite a while and hunted Naruto down afterwards that would put a lot more weight to it but thats not what happened.

The contradiction you speak of doesn't exist, honestly.

Maybe he would went after Naruto. Who knows. S4 came to get him out, first thing he had to do was get out. Hunting Naruto in Leaf and getting caught was simply not an option.

Naruto went after him, which made the entire thing simply convenient.

You honestly expect Sasuke to go "Hold on Sakon, let's ambush Naruto's apartment in broad village first thing before we try to run away!" or something...?

And, again, none of it contradicts or changes the fact that only reason the entire Sasuke killing Naruto intent and scene existed was because. of. MS.

What I'm saying is Sasuke's thinking at this time is flawed and the basis for it is a lie.

Yes, that is true. His thinking is influenced by what Itachi told him. He didn't know any better, and from his perspective, Itachi gained MS by killing Shusui, and he'll gain MS by killing the one he considers his best friend. Itachi told him that's the only way he can get power and he needs those eyes before seeing him again.

You tried to imply Sasuke's motivation was a whim, that Naruto meant nothing to him in that moment, that MS wasn't prime drive. All of it is canonically wrong.

Saying it doesn't make sense is fine. I disagree, I think Sasuke cared about his life and other people's life, but nothing mattered in face of revenge caused by emotional trauma that would honestly kill most folks IRL or make them go insane, although that's a different story. I simply just don't agree with your perspective that A mattering over B means B doesn't mean anything.

But the canonical fact is that Sasuke did it for MS, not for nothing. Canonical fact is that Sasuke did it BECAUSE he considered Naruto his best friend, not because he didn't care (in-verse).

I think its fucked up you believe their friendship is realistic even. Damn. Thankfully you would be in the minority on that. People don't think much of it because its a work of fiction.

I think it's somewhat realistic under the insane circumstances of their situation and upbringing, which are 100x more extreme than anything realistically possible in real world. Shikamaru and Choji's is friendship you'd see in regular world because their circumstances are same are your usual folks IRL.

Anyway, I'm quoting this because it's, like, the third time you've brought up stuff regarding other people agreeing or disagreeing- minority, majority, etc. Don't really care about this stuff, but I think it's weird as your opinion is the one that's unpopular, at least in the thread lol

 

[Milliardo]

For the record, I'm not trying to bring VoTE to prove their friendship. You were the one who tried to bring up VoTE to disprove their friendship. I hardly gave a fuck about it at first.

I was content with discussing their relationship build-up in Part I, you tried to act like a lot of it was empty talk because of SRA and deflected the entire debate to simply VoTE. Can't really discuss their relationship or whether it was okay'ish developed or not if you do that.

I'm quoting you so I hope your happy. I know it won't change how you ignore things unfortunately...


Anyways the first time you ever quoted me you said vote proved Sasuke did care so I don't really believe you didn't give a fuck about it.

I told you multiple times we can discuss pre Itachi but you never forced the conversation that way. You are the topic creator not me.

Going off Sasuke's words yeah its hard to take it seriously when he tries to kill Naruto a month later. Sasuke used the word "ever" which means forever as in he NEVER wanted to see that happen again. Yet he himself tries to make it happen not long after that....

Your response is its a different arc as if its a completely different character.... I don't give a fuck what Itachi did Sasuke has to own up to his words and actions. Sorry but Sasuke doesn't get a pass for that. There is no bye week like in football. Thats not how it works.

You're caring about what MS is about.

You're not caring about what Sasuke thought and what Itachi told us what MS was about.

I already told you Sasuke was delusional. Read what the fuck I type.. How many times have we covered this? I'm just going to start copy and pasting my responses.

Again and Again MS shows they have to CARE! IF YOU CARE THEN YOU DON'T WANT TO LOSE THEM! This shows Sasuke's random thought that popped in his head mid fight was wrong thats why he is deluded.. Sasuke forced himself to believe something that was never going to be true. All he cared about was power at time. There was no caring for Naruto.

You're taking information 100s of chapters after VoTE fight into consideration, all while not caring much for the motivations stemming from information DURING that fight.

I'm sorry but you can't freeze events in a story or manga and pretend they can be true if you ignore newer information that contradicts it. You really need to drop this. This is very odd thinking. It screams desperation.

Its like pretending Itachi was always bad and ignoring part two.

This does not fly with me.

Only thing Manga provided and Sasuke knew, and Itachi said, was that MS is achieved through killing your best friend during VoTE. Nothing more, nothing less. And that's what Sasuke tried to do. Nothing more, nothing less.

"I'm sorry but you can't freeze events in a story or manga and pretend they can be true if you ignore newer information that contradicts it. You really need to drop this. This is very odd thinking. It screams desperation.

Its like pretending Itachi was always bad and ignoring part two.

This does not fly with me. "


I'm tired of repeating myself....

Except, the entire scene is based around "outdated" information.

If the outdated information didn't exist, Sasuke would never try to kill Naruto.

I already told you several times now Naruto forced the fight. Sasuke said he didn't kill Naruto on a whim which means its random.

If you pretend the outdated information doesn't exist, you have to pretend that Sasuke's killing intent vs Naruto in VoTE fight didn't exist.

You can't retcon one thing while pretending events caused by that thing only aren't retconned. That's insanely fucked up.

I don't pretend anything. I know its a lie and Sasuke deluded himself into believing it for power.

The contradiction you speak of doesn't exist, honestly.

Yeah it does.

Part one: Kill your friend for MS.

Part two: Greive over the loss of a loved one equals MS.

Not to mention killing your friend goes against caring. It goes against the message of the manga.

Maybe he would went after Naruto. Who knows. S4 came to get him out, first thing he had to do was get out. Hunting Naruto in Leaf and getting caught was simply not an option.

Sasuke almost killed Naruto before the sound 4 met him. Sasuke already knows what Itachi told him and could have tried to kill Naruto before heading off but he didn't.... There is no maybe we go off what actually happened mr. pretend.

Naruto went after him, which made the entire thing simply convenient.

You mean forced because neither was going to give up.

You honestly expect Sasuke to go "Hold on Sakon, let's ambush Naruto's apartment in broad village first thing before we try to run away!" or something...?

And, again, none of it contradicts or changes the fact that only reason the entire Sasuke killing Naruto intent and scene existed was because. of. MS.

Is this a serious attempt? Sasuke almost killed Naruto in front of Sakura in daylight if not for Kakashi. Why would it be so hard to lure him some place where they would be alone to finish the fight with MS in mind?

It shows Sasuke didn't hunt Naruto for MS which proves it was on a whim like he said which means random. That doesn't equal strong emotion. This has been explained several times to you now...

Do you understand how this undermines your point? Going off Sasuke's delusion and random thought highlights that the caring part was not involved....... POWER was his concern here. If that was his only concern then he didn't fucking care.

I mean how the fuck do I word it to where you will understand it?


Your logic is Sasuke killing Naruto for MS means they are friends never mind the actual caring part. You have to cling to misguided and outdated information that was proven to be a lie.

You ignore that Sasuke was delusional and only really thinking about power and nothing else.

Yes, that is true. His thinking is influenced by what Itachi told him. He didn't know any better, and from his perspective, Itachi gained MS by killing Shusui, and he'll gain MS by killing the one he considers his best friend. Itachi told him that's the only way he can get power and he needs those eyes before seeing him again.

Sasuke knew better he just deluded himself for a moment. It was on a whim. Before and after the fight Sasuke chose a different way.

You tried to imply Sasuke's motivation was a whim, that Naruto meant nothing to him in that moment, that MS wasn't prime drive. All of it is canonically wrong.

Sasuke himself said so. In that moment Sasuke's concern was power. All of it is in the manga. I have not made up any of it. Honestly its common sense too and goes against what the manga wants you to believe with the message of protecting your friends and becoming stronger as you fight for them.

Saying it doesn't make sense is fine. I disagree, I think Sasuke cared about his life and other people's life, but nothing mattered in face of revenge caused by emotional trauma that would honestly kill most folks IRL or make them go insane, although that's a different story. I simply just don't agree with your perspective that A mattering over B means B doesn't mean anything.

If nothing mattered then Sasuke didn't care and it wasn't in the face of revenge. I have already explained how Sasuke had other options and yes he was pursuing it without going for MS originally. You keep disregarding this though which tells me you have nothing against it.

The perspective is that Sasuke can have both A and B but chose A exclusively on a whim. Ignore this all you want but its not going away.


Honestly, your argument would improve greatly if you went with the insane angle. A lot of people do because it makes far more sense.

But the canonical fact is that Sasuke did it for MS, not for nothing. Canonical fact is that Sasuke did it BECAUSE he considered Naruto his best friend, not because he didn't care (in-verse).

Yes, Sasuke's only concern was for power. It was on a whim that Sasuke didn't kill Naruto which are his own words.

Fortunately that's not how MS works as that goes against caring also via the manga.

I think it's somewhat realistic under the insane circumstances of their situation and upbringing, which are 100x more extreme than anything realistically possible in real world. Shikamaru and Choji's is friendship you'd see in regular world because their circumstances are same are your usual folks IRL.

I can see where you are coming from but we are suppose to relate to them in some way. Besides Konoha wasn't really that harsh of a village. The 3rd Hokage was soft and you had friendships like Kakashi and Gai blooming despite horrible events they seen and went through. It was actually easier for Naruto and Sasuke's generation as whole. Kakashi talks of this at Obito's grave I believe.

Honestly, I think Kakashi went through a harder life.

Anyway, I'm quoting this because it's, like, the third time you've brought up stuff regarding other people agreeing or disagreeing- minority, majority, etc. Don't really care about this stuff, but I think it's weird as your opinion is the one that's unpopular, at least in the thread lol

Well of course half these guys want me to fail because they argued this same subject in my topic but gave up.

I bring it up because its scary to think otherwise. Just thinking about power being more important than someone's life (let alone your friend) would be pretty fucked up in real life. Yeah people do crazy shit in real life too so yeah its not out of the realm of possibilities but still very fucked up. I don't want to meet a person like that.


In conclusion you will ignore my words so we will continue repeating the same fucking shit over and over again. I'm just going to copy and paste from now on. Anyways can't wait to read the same shit from you after this again..

 

[Milliardo]

“Your parents grounding you means they don’t love you. Good parents like to see their kids happy and grounding them makes sad. So your parents don’t love you otherwise they wouldn’t do it” - Milliardo probably

Come on Ashi you can do better than this. The parents need to kill the children so they can relax more. Now they still cared for the children just not more than relaxation.



@Shanal

Forgot to mention if you want to only talk pre itachi then just let me know. Its your topic so I will honor your wishes.