North America's historical distaste towards communism

seanspotatobusiness

A potato in every bite.
I'm wondering on what basis the US (in general) feared/hated/disliked/dislike(?) communism. Is it the concept (I don't think the concept of sharing seems particularly awful for most people, except perhaps if you've something to lose which should be a minority)? Is it the fact that it goes against the selfish nature of many people and would therefore need to be enforced, reducing personal freedom? Was it to do with Communist Russia's presence a (potentially?) hostile super-power?

I understand that capitalism may, depending on the circumstances, generate the greatest productivity among the population, and would therefore be the most economically-sound choice, although people in certain positions of wealth/power, may have their own personal reasons. These two could also be potential reasons. Maybe I've answered my own original question. I wonder what your ideas are/were before you read this post?
 
To me, it's just plain counter-intuitive that a janitor should make just as much as a nuclear scientist. This system penalizes productivity and reduces your options (and hence freedom) with your disposable income. I guess you can make people work harder if you have a gun to their head, but that wouldn't be the greatest setup now, would it. I also don't like how the state is above the individual, and dissent is discouraged for the sake of collective whole. It's like we have to bow to other people's will.

Capitalism can be unfair too, but that's another discussion.
 
I'm wondering on what basis the US (in general) feared/hated/disliked/dislike(?) communism. Is it the concept (I don't think the concept of sharing seems particularly awful for most people, except perhaps if you've something to lose which should be a minority)? Is it the fact that it goes against the selfish nature of many people and would therefore need to be enforced, reducing personal freedom? Was it to do with Communist Russia's presence a (potentially?) hostile super-power?

I understand that capitalism may, depending on the circumstances, generate the greatest productivity among the population, and would therefore be the most economically-sound choice, although people in certain positions of wealth/power, may have their own personal reasons. These two could also be potential reasons. Maybe I've answered my own original question. I wonder what your ideas are/were before you read this post?

There are several resons for that hostility. Certainly one main reason was that America was, and is, an inherently Capitalistic Society, and that as a motive includes the Capitalist Industrialists fearing to lose their hold on Society, as well as all of their Wealth.

More condonable was that, during the Cold War- which is what all of this was about- the only Communist countries in the World were Totalitarian Dictatorships, and that goes against the American/ Western instinct for Freedom and Democracy (the Soviet Bloc pretended to be Democratic, at times, but it was'nt and most elections were rigged in several ways).
Of course, then we come to Chile which under Allende was the worlds first and only Communist state built on genuinelly Democrtic principles and that did not enfore State Tyranny, only for it to be overthrown by Pinochet, backed by the US. In fairness, by this time the Cold War had been on for a while an that mindest set in.

As you say, the USA came to see the Soviet Union as it's major Rival for Globabl Dominance, and as a World Superpower (there was nothing "potential" about it's Hostility, however- the regime was among the most violent in history, and promotd several others); the USSR definitely had designs on the World itself-it espoused a Revolutionary Ideology that it hoped would change the World (actually not that different from the early US's own vision of Democracy- eg. they supported, and got involved in, the French Revolution)-though the USA could be said to be concerned more about it's own dominance than anything else.

Some might have had the foresight to see that Communism on an Industrailscale was unworkable, and it led to weak economies and a lack of variety (though most only learned this after the USSR collapsed and it's records opened to academics); I disagree with what you said about humanity's "selfish nature" because (a) I disagree, and (b) Communist-style societies actually have worked, although of course these tend to be small scale, Tribal ones.

The ordinary Yank was probably just susceptible to anti-Communist propaganda, seeing it as an invasive Foreign Ideology without gaining a real undestanding of what it was about (Europe, in contrast, had a sizable minority who thought that the Soviet Union was Paradise- equally naive).
They would have more or less been "conditioned" to accept Capitalism as the most normal and sound way of life, especially for America even if they thought it was right for other parts of the world, and despite the inequalities of Capitalism. In other words, they accepted what was said about Communism and Capitalism without thinking that much for themselves.

I should note that during the 1930's- and earlier than that- many US Businesses had no problem doing deals with the Soviet Union (these tende to be the same guys who did deals with the Nazi's), simply because it was'nt seen as their problem and therefore they could make money out of it (bare in mind that this was Stalinist Russia). The Hostility came after WW2, when America abandoned it's Isolationsist polices and became a player on the World Stage, which also is when the Military-Industrial complex gained it's foothold.

So in summary, it was a combination of Capitalist Greed, Nationalism (as well as Patriotism), naivete about the realities of Communism, and the realities of Communism which still did pose a threat.


To me, it's just plain counter-intuitive that a janitor should make just as much as a nuclear scientist. This system penalizes productivity and reduces your options (and hence freedom) with your disposable income. I guess you can make people work harder if you have a gun to their head, but that wouldn't be the greatest setup now, would it. I also don't like how the state is above the individual, and dissent is discouraged for the sake of collective whole. It's like we have to bow to other people's will.

Capitalism can be unfair too, but that's another discussion.

Yeah...that's not how it works.

It's more like Janitor in one place will make exactly the same as a Janitor someplace else (within the Communist Society), as will any two Nuclear Scientists. The Scientists will be making more money than the Janitor, though.

Different companies will offer different wages, even for two people doing exactly the same Job. Since the only company that is running is the State,
the wages remain the same.
 
i trhink its because of the kind of people who founded the USA and ruled/rule it

also the USA tended for a long ass time to be huge land mass with sparse population

= very conservative
 
That isn't true communism. The example you provided is artificial social/economic stratification.

It is Marxist Communism, at least as practiced in most Communist societies (or appeared to- it was quite different when you got to the Top).

The main tenent of Communism is that Private Enterprise is abolished, and everyone has an equal share in everything. Marx never actually detailed what he thought a Communist Society would look like, so that leaves things open to interpretation.

However, this conforms to the Meritocratic priciples that were supposed to be inherent in a Communist society. A True Communist Society probably would'nt have any need for money at all; since everyone would share equally in everything, of what use was money?

Marx expected Mankind to subvert their Greed and their Ego's, for the Common Good. In effect, he was evisioning a return to the basic principles of Primitive Communism- Tribes and the like- but on a Universal scale. Inequality and all of Humanities problems would then fade away.

A bit like Star Trek.
 
Honeslty, I'm going to have to say the answer to your question is a mix between human selfishness and propaganda by the American government (From during the Cold War), that eventually spread elsewhere.
 
Honeslty, I'm going to have to say the answer to your question is a mix between human selfishness and propaganda by the American government (From during the Cold War), that eventually spread elsewhere.

human selfishness is hardly limited to america however. and the cold war didnt really start in earnest until well after america's distaste for communism and socialism. i still think its mostly a function of us being such a rural society relative to europe
 
The cold war between the communist soviet union started it all. Don't expect any changes for the attitudes as people are just starting to realize China's reach for world power.
 
Can you provide us with any sources for this conjecture?

sure just refer to the very anti-labor stances taken by the government, the violence against people trying to make unions or do strikes for decades and decades, how anyone with such a view was labelled "anarchist" and could be jailed under crazy laws. i guess i'll refer you to try searching stuff like "gilded era industrial practices" "progressive era union goverment relationships" "20th century strike busting" etc etc maybe "early red scares in USA"
 
I did read a very interesting article on a topic relating to communism, but I found nothing of the sort. In any case, all arguments in relation to history, in intelligent debate, must be substantiated by external resources... and the Burden of Proof is on you. Unless you can provide me at least one shred of evidence that there was a pre-Cold War dislike of Communism and Socialism, I'm going to have to take your views with a grain of salt and move on.
 
I did read a very interesting article on a topic relating to communism, but I found nothing of the sort. In any case, all arguments in relation to history, in intelligent debate, must be substantiated by external resources... and the Burden of Proof is on you. Unless you can provide me at least one shred of evidence that there was a pre-Cold War dislike of Communism and Socialism, I'm going to have to take your views with a grain of salt and move on.

The best critique of the standard economic model of socialism, which is democratic economic planning, is that such economies are impossible, due to the fact the nature of prices, which is what planning is effectively trying to replace.

Individual actors in the market act on a specific set of implicit and explicit knowledges, that lead them to want a particular thing. These knowledges are decentralized and due to the fact that some are implicit, that is we do not reason about them, they are constitutive of social conditioning, it is impossible for people to vote democratically to choose what is produced.

Simply, a planned economy cannot have rational prices that reflect what people want, because of what those prices reflect which is a decentralized process of interaction. Similarly, in order for democratic planning to produce the diversity of products that is made in any market driven society, the individuals in the society would have to be constantly communicating with the state to tell them what is produced. This is why states with planned economies tend to have very little diversification in the products they produce.

Socialism will never lead to the material quality of life that capitalism will. Market Socialism ala Theodore Burczak is tenable though, but democratic socialism will never be effective in what it attempts to do, which is try to achieve a good standard of living for all.

My other critique of Marxism is the fact that Marxism is an epistemologically arrogant ideology, that does not know the limits of what humans can do in this world, and the knowledge humans can arrive at. The conceit of excess rationalism in politics has lead to totalitarianism time and time again, humanity should learn from its mistakes. Political change is more effective when it is gradual, and does not involve a singular set of systematic knowledges.
 
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