NERDS ONLY: Was Haku a Hermaphrodite? (SPOILER WARNING)

[Eliminator]

SPOILER WARNING: READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

LEAVE THIS THREAD IF YOU'RE NOT A NERD.

Okay, first things first. We all know of the confusion that's happening about Haku's gender. Some people say that he was a boy who looked like a girl. Others say that he was a girl pretending to be boy. I, however, am thinking, "Perhaps Haku was both?"

Yep. But I'm not really a hundrerd percent sure yet about it. Of course, I will need the help of you guys to confirm such. This is where we talk about this certain matter.

I will also accept arguments against what I am thinking. Feel free to post your thoughts about Haku's gender here or simply get angry at me.

And if you are not a nerd, but are interested in this topic, then begin being one by going to Wikipedia and researching on Hermaphrodites and anything else related.

Good luck and be nerdy!

Damn I've posted too many threads on a single day day...

 

[Elyk Karasagi]

He was(he's dead now...too soon if u ask me) a Boy... i mean come on...he tells naruto that when they first meet. although you are right...it is hard to tell...even i forget sometimes...but hey...you do have a valid point...now that i think of it..his gender never was proven...we just have his word.

 

[Eliminator]

C'mon!

He was(he's dead now...too soon if u ask me) a Boy... i mean come on...he tells naruto that when they first meet. although you are right...it is hard to tell...even i forget sometimes...but hey...you do have a valid point...now that i think of it..his gender never was proven...we just have his word.

We can't be sure. Haku could always tell that he/she was a boy even if she was a girl. Even I can say that I am a girl when in fact I am a boy. I've got more proof and I'll show it later...

 

[barrendesert]

Um. Haku was a guy. I mean, why would he say that if he wasn't? I mean, unless Kishi wants to pull a J.K. Rowling, and tell us the truth after the series is over. If you're talking about klinefelter's syndrome or turner's syndrome or something, that's not being a hermaphrodite. It's being intersexed, and they're not the same thing. In order to be a true hermaphrodite, you must have both sexes' organs and both must be functional. But that cannot happen in humans. Yes, there are animals out there that are true hermaphrodites (look it up yourself). But human beings can't. Sorry.

Therefore, Haku is not a hermaphrodite. He's a guy. A pretty guy. And those exist in the world. I mean, if Kishi ends up admitting that the kid had Klinefelter's, then fine, whatever. But I'm pretty sure he's a normal guy with no issues other than being a little feminine looking. I mean, why does there even have to be something wrong with that? Isn't there some famous Korean actor who is so feminine looking he crossdresses for movies sometimes?

Btw, if you wanna read a good novel on disorders of sexual development, read Middlesex. It's EXCELLENT. I highly recommend it.

 

[Elyk Karasagi]

BTW Alistair...luv teh spoiler...sed teh same thing wen i saw it...wierd

 

[barrendesert]

Also, why is there a spoiler warning?

 

[Elyk Karasagi]

dunno...this subject isnt taboo...although it is debatable

 

[Eliminator]

Um. Haku was a guy. I mean, why would he say that if he wasn't? I mean, unless Kishi wants to pull a J.K. Rowling, and tell us the truth after the series is over. If you're talking about klinefelter's syndrome or turner's syndrome or something, that's not being a hermaphrodite. It's being intersexed, and they're not the same thing. In order to be a true hermaphrodite, you must have both sexes' organs and both must be functional. But that cannot happen in humans. Yes, there are animals out there that are true hermaphrodites (look it up yourself). But human beings can't. Sorry.

Therefore, Haku is not a hermaphrodite. He's a guy. A pretty guy. And those exist in the world. I mean, if Kishi ends up admitting that the kid had Klinefelter's, then fine, whatever. But I'm pretty sure he's a normal guy with no issues other than being a little feminine looking. I mean, why does there even have to be something wrong with that? Isn't there some famous Korean actor who is so feminine looking he crossdresses for movies sometimes?

Btw, if you wanna read a good novel on disorders of sexual development, read Middlesex. It's EXCELLENT. I highly recommend it.

I was thinking abour Klinefelter's syndrome too.
Oh, and about true hermaphrodites, they appear on human beings too. Besides, even if Haku wasn't he/she could always be a pseudohermaphrodite.

 

[barrendesert]

dunno...this subject isnt taboo...although it is debatable

It's probably been debated before since the Wave country arc, which was a long, long time ago, actually.

 

[Eliminator]

...

Also, why is there a spoiler warning?

It's for those guys who are new to Naruto and reading/watching from the beginning. Also, in the process, many might include spoilers in their proofs.

 

[Elyk Karasagi]

yeah good point...wouldnt want to ruin it for teh noobs

 

[Eliminator]

I know.

It's probably been debated before since the Wave country arc, which was a long, long time ago, actually.

Maybe, but time has passed and people's views on Haku may have changed. There's even a "Haku was a girl" FC. Try searching for it in the Fan Clubs section.

 

[Elyk Karasagi]

yeah i saw it too...someone called Nanni has it under a spoiler button

 

[barrendesert]

I was thinking abour Klinefelter's syndrome too.
Oh, and about true hermaphrodites, they appear on human beings too. Besides, even if Haku wasn't he/she could always be a pseudohermaphrodite.

They do not appear in human beings. I don't know where you got that information. But it's not possible for a human being to impregnate him or herself... And the term pseudohermaphrodite is rarely used because the term intersex replaced it, which is more correct and refers to inbetween the sexes, rather than both sexes. It's the same way you wouldn't call dissociative identity disorder "multiple personality disorder"... Won't go into that.

Give me one example of a TRUE hermaphrodite, if you're so sure that true human hermaphrodites exist.

 

[Eliminator]

They do not appear in human beings. I don't know where you got that information. But it's not possible for a human being to impregnate him or herself... And the term pseudohermaphrodite is rarely used because the term intersex replaced it, which is more correct and refers to inbetween the sexes, rather than both sexes. It's the same way you wouldn't call dissociative identity disorder "multiple personality disorder"... Won't go into that.

Give me one example of a TRUE hermaphrodite, if you're so sure that true human hermaphrodites exist.

At one meeting of the American Society of Human Genetics (1978), there was a report of a 25-year-old true hermaphrodite who even got pregnant:amazed and gave birth:amazed to a child. Unfortunately, the child was stillborn.
I got it from my book here, the Science of Genetics, by George W. Burns and Paul J. Bottino. It also states that there are a few other true hermaphrodites.

 

[Elyk Karasagi]

Great...Im learning...just what i wanted to do

although...ill probably have to check this out anyway...just to be better informed

 

[forgotten_hero]

I don't think that the truth will ever be known. Kishi just likes to see all the arguments pop up in regards to Haku's gender.

 

[Eliminator]

Oh, and that hermaphrodite I mentioned a while ago. She was said to have lived a male sexual lif before, but later switched to the female role. (Don't take it maliciously. This is SCIENCE.)

I don't think that the truth will ever be known. Kishi just likes to see all the arguments pop up in regards to Haku's gender.

He might not ever tell the truth but we'll find out!

 

[barrendesert]

Oh, and that hermaphrodite I mentioned a while ago. She was said to have lived a male sexual lif before, but later switched to the female role. (Don't take it maliciously. This is SCIENCE.)

Well, I'll take your word for it, but I just don't see how it's biologically possible.

But in the case of Haku, I doubt he's intersexed or a hermaphrodite. I believe he was given feminine features for comedic purposes. Because it's always funny to mistake a guy for a girl.

Also, just as a counter to your argument, if a girl was mistaken for a guy in the series, would you consider her to possibly be intersexed and/or a hermaphrodite?

 

[halfhearted]

First off, the whole discrepancy concerning Haku's sex is a typical trait of shonen manga and manga, in general. He was a trap character; you were supposed to think he was female, and you weren't supposed to question the fact that he was male after it was revealed.

That is why Kishimoto had it explicitly stated that Haku was a male by the character himself, that's why Zabuza referred to Haku as "him" and that's why Kakashi called him "that boy". Also, following his reveal as male there were no instances of femininity, hints at the possibility of him lying or remarks about him being female. If there were, then there might be a case for his gender being anything other than male.

But, again, it doesn't exist.

As for the hemaphrodite theory, Kishimoto tends to write things a certain way for a very specific, often thematic reason. So, if something as big as multiple sexual organs or the potential to be either male or female physically was a part of a character, then there would need to be a justifiable literary use for such a development. Not only that, but it would need to be in some way implied (beyond people being unable to understand that Haku is a trap character) or used by the author to make the aforementioned point.

Hermaphroditism has in no way been hinted at/symbolized specifically or played any kind of role in "Naruto" (unless you are going to include Orochimaru's body switches which are a whole other issue entirely). So, there is absolutely no reason to believe that Haku was a hermaphrodite, beyond random fan speculation that lacks a base in canon.

 

[Eliminator]

...

Well, I'll take your word for it, but I just don't see how it's biologically possible.

But in the case of Haku, I doubt he's intersexed or a hermaphrodite. I believe he was given feminine features for comedic purposes. Because it's always funny to mistake a guy for a girl.

Also, just as a counter to your argument, if a girl was mistaken for a guy in the series, would you consider her to possibly be intersexed and/or a hermaphrodite?

Are you wondering if she got impregnated by herself. No, not actually, but by another person.
And the possibility of Haku being an intersexual? Possible and considerable, though nobody (including me) would like it, for sure.

 

[barrendesert]

Are you wondering if she got impregnated by herself. No, not actually, but by another person.
And the possibility of Haku being an intersexual? Possible and considerable, though nobody (including me) would like it, for sure.

Okay. Well, can this woman get another person pregnant?

Also, I'm asking you whether or not you would ever question a girl to be intersexed or a hermy, if she was once mistaken for a guy.

And what's wrong with intersexed people if you're saying no one would like a character to be such? Aren't they human beings as well?

 

[Eliminator]

First off, the whole discrepancy concerning Haku's sex is a typical trait of shonen manga and manga, in general. He was a trap character; you were supposed to think he was female, and you weren't supposed to question the fact that he was male after it was revealed.

That is why Kishimoto had it explicitly stated that Haku was a male by the character himself, that's why Zabuza referred to Haku as "him" and that's why Kakashi called him "that boy". Also, following his reveal as male there were no instances of femininity, hints at the possibility of him lying or remarks about him being female. If there were, then there might be a case for his gender being anything other than male.

But, again, it doesn't exist.

As for the hemaphrodite theory, Kishimoto tends to write things a certain way for a very specific, often thematic reason. So, if something as big as multiple sexual organs or the potential to be either male or female physically was a part of a character, then there would need to be a justifiable literary use for such a development. Not only that, but it would need to be in some way implied (beyond people being unable to understand that Haku is a trap character) or used by the author to make the aforementioned point.

Hermaphroditism has in no way been hinted at/symbolized specifically or played any kind of role in "Naruto" (unless you are going to include Orochimaru's body switches which are a whole other issue entirely). So, there is absolutely no reason to believe that Haku was a hermaphrodite, beyond random fan speculation that lacks a base in canon.

No instances of femininity? Very wrong. Try this: Haku was a girl
That could help.

Okay. Well, can this woman get another person pregnant?

Also, I'm asking you whether or not you would ever question a girl to be intersexed or a hermy, if she was once mistaken for a guy.

And what's wrong with intersexed people if you're saying no one would like a character to be such? Aren't they human beings as well?

Answer #1: My book doesn't mention if she can impregnate other women, but it could be as she once lived a male sex life. (SCIENCE! Don't take it maliciously!)
Answer #2: I would, unless he/she were a real person.
Answer #3: I wasn't saying I wanted a character to be such. I just didn't like Haku to be one.

 

[halfhearted]

No instances of femininity? Very wrong. Try this: Haku was a girl
That could help.

That entire post is:

-personal opinion (i.e. implying that Haku's desire to be Zabuza's tool was due to his rejection of feminine consolation)
-contains bucketloads of cultural bias (i.e. in a manga that has outright yaoi, saying that a male is not going to show any kind of romantic affection towards another male; see Japanese literary history, bushido, monastic same sex love, and warrior mores imitated by middle class society for more of an idea how men can be seen together in Japanese works, including those meant for children)
-makes statements without using either RAW transcripts or American Jump released scans (which means all of their gender pronoun talk is a little ridiculous, especially the "otoko" line as boys of all ages have been seen to refer to themselves as otoko in manga).

In other words, no, it doesn't help your argument. Also, in debating, please refrain from linking to outside sources. Paraphrasing the ideas that you agree with may take more time, but it's a courtesy you should extend. Mostly because people will rarely take the time to follow and read the entire essay they are linked, when they get to be so long. Not to mention the fact that it's a mild blow to your credibility, since you don't really seem to have your own argument.

 

[Eliminator]

That entire post is:

-personal opinion (i.e. implying that Haku's desire to be Zabuza's tool was due to his rejection of feminine consolation)
-contains bucketloads of cultural bias (i.e. in a manga that has outright yaoi, saying that a male is not going to show any kind of romantic affection towards another male; see Japanese literary history, bushido, monastic same sex love, and warrior mores imitated by middle class society for more of an idea how men can be seen together in Japanese works, including those meant for children)
-makes statements without using either RAW transcripts or American Jump released scans (which means all of their gender pronoun talk is a little ridiculous, especially the "otoko" line as boys of all ages have been seen to refer to themselves as otoko in manga).

In other words, no, it doesn't help your argument. Also, in debating, please refrain from linking to outside sources. Paraphrasing the ideas that you agree with may take more time, but it's a courtesy you should extend. Mostly because people will rarely take the time to follow and read the entire essay they are linked, when they get to be so long. Not to mention the fact that it's a mild blow to your credibility, since you don't really seem to have your own argument.

Doesn't use RAW transcripts? Read again.

"In other words, no, it doesn't help your argument. Also, in debating, please refrain from linking to outside sources. Paraphrasing the ideas that you agree with may take more time, but it's a courtesy you should extend. Mostly because people will rarely take the time to follow and read the entire essay they are linked, when they get to be so long. Not to mention the fact that it's a mild blow to your credibility, since you don't really seem to have your own argument." So Wikipedia isn't credible, eh, as it uses outside sources? Also, if a person really is interested in learning, he should learn the whole thing without skipping anything, just like Naruto and Konohamaru said.

 

[barrendesert]

Answer #1: My book doesn't mention if she can impregnate other women, but it could be as she once lived a male sex life. (SCIENCE! Don't take it maliciously!)
Answer #2: I would, unless he/she were a real person.
Answer #3: I wasn't saying I wanted a character to be such. I just didn't like Haku to be one.

Listen, you don't have to remind me that your answer is "scientific" rather than malicious. Chill out. Anyway, if it doesn't mention that she could produce sperm and carry out a normal male sex life (in addition to a normal female sex life), then I'll remain undecided on the issue. I like clear facts presented to me before I believe things.

It's not uncommon for girls to be mistaken for guys IRL and in anime/manga. It's usually for humor. So I believe it's the same thing with Haku, but reversed roles. But hey, at least you're consistent.

 

[halfhearted]

Doesn't use RAW transcripts? Read again.

I did. In fact, I've read the same argument here, as that poster often likes to debate his ideas on NF and copy/paste the same argument. There is not a single manga page within those posts that contains kanji or kana. It is all translated copies, and they are fan translations due to the variety of fonts employed.

So Wikipedia isn't credible, eh, as it uses outside sources?

No, not usually. That's why one isn't allowed to use it in the scholarly world. Although, the sources that they reference can be reliable on occasion. But most articles should be taken with a grain of salt, since they are free for anyone to edit.

And, when I was referring to outside sources, I was specifically talking about others who have put forth the same debate in the fandom world. For instance, someone debating pairings linking to a livejournal pairing manifesto.

EDIT: Regarding your remark about "learning the whole" thing, this is true. But, unfortunately, most people aren't on this forum for educational purposes. And so, most of the posters that respond to you aren't going to bother.

 

[Eliminator]

So what?

EDIT: Regarding your remark about "learning the whole" thing, this is true. But, unfortunately, most people aren't on this forum for educational purposes. And so, most of the posters that respond to you aren't going to bother.

So what? I'm doing it for those who bother to do it.

Anyway, we should be talking about Haku's gender.

 

[Juubi]

No. He was just an especially feminine male.

 

[Eliminator]

No. He was just an especially feminine male.

No, we can't be sure. Haku could just have been lying.

Anyway, NICE SIG!