Just because someone in Naruto says something.

jbyrnes1

Member
Doesn't mean that Kishi is saying it, or that it's remotely true.

Kishi is making them say things, and he could make them say things for many reasons.

He is obviously trying to make you think SOMETHING by making a character say something.

He may be trying to get you to believe something, only to surprise you later when it's not really true.

He may be trying to get you to look underneath the statement, and make your own assumptions.

Though he may be just informing you of something, do NOT assume that.

It kind of bothers me when people say "Kishi said" blah blah blah, when it's really just a character made by Kishi saying something. He has an AGENDA people, his actions are deliberate and focused on a goal. Most likely that goal is to get you to feel an emotion.

Literary analysis, not literary comprehension. You can understand that a character said something, but that doesn't mean you can understand what it means when a character said something.
 
Perhaps but there are certain statements meant to be taken at face value, in order to further the story. Its pretty obvious when a character may be misleading another character. When deciding the validity of a statment you have to determine where its coming from, and how objective the source is. And for future reference you should be more specific with your topics.
 
Well, unless you read a interview from kishi, you look at his charectors as little versions of himself. As most writers will tell you, they put a little of themselfs into the charectors. So looking at the self righteous naruto, or the moody-as-hell sasuke, you can say that it is what he-himself is saying.

We only have what they are saying to go on anyways.
 
This isn't some intricate Hollywood movie that has many hidden meanings. Shounen manga's concepts and ideas are like Snakes on a Plane; straightforward, and to the point.

Kishimoto speaks through his characters, every single time. He takes advantage of Naruto's inability to grasp something quickly enough, so Naruto asks all the questions lots of us are probably wondering.

Jiraiya and Orochimaru tell us Kabuto's on Kakashi's level, and Jiraiya only by looking. This was proven true when he took on Tsunade. I remember when Naruto analyzed Kakashi's skills in the second bell test. He gave an accurate account of Kakashi's abilities.

There are deeper things, though, like the Uchiha Clan's true History and Purpose, and yin and yang of chakra, but this is also very obviously clear. Everything's blatant and straightforward. We get occasional surprises, sure, but still...

This isn't overly complicated stuff. Most of the stuff that's said is the truth. Of course, lying exists, but in every Shounen manga, most of what's said is true. You seem to forget, Naruto's a manga intended for children. Kishimoto's not goign to waste his time making things overly complicated.
Doesn't mean that Kishi is saying it, or that it's remotely true.
...Really? And just exactly who is writing this story?
 
9Tail-Hokage said:
...Really? And just exactly who is writing this story?

That was pretty stupid of a comment. You already admitted that Kishi sometimes does things to mislead the readers and then DIRECTLY contradict yourself, right there. When you get up high and mighty with arrogance, remember to actually be consistent.

But I'm talking about OBVIOUS things, like character hyping. Sometimes Kishi will have characters talk and while some of the things they say are likely exaggerations, or not meant to be taken at face value, people will try using it as evidence to prove their hopelessly absurd ideas.

Obviously this is a shonen manga, I know, but some of the people on this board do say things that even a child would think is stupid.
 
He was referring to the "Doesn't mean Kishi is saying it" point.
 
Satetsu Kaihou said:
He was referring to the "Doesn't mean Kishi is saying it" point.

Is that directed at me?

Because if it is, I don't think you understood the point I was trying to make.

I fully understand what he was referring to.
 
I think I know what you're saying, but few examples would make it more clear. Can you point out anything specific from the manga?
 
jbyrnes1 said:
Is that directed at me?

Because if it is, I don't think you understood the point I was trying to make.

I fully understand what he was referring to.

Then sorry, i don't understand the point you was making.
 
That was pretty stupid of a comment.
No, this was, because you said it wrong. If you're going to call me stupid, at least say, "that was a pretty stupid comment." "Of a" was not necessary in the sentence.

You already admitted that Kishi sometimes does things to mislead the readers and then DIRECTLY contradict yourself, right there. When you get up high and mighty with arrogance, remember to actually be consistent.
I admitted to there being a few surprises here and there, nothing more. Kubo Tite, manga-ka of Bleach, shocked us with Aizen in Bleach. Kishimoto really hasn't given us something that shocking yet, at least not to me. I can't recall Kishimoto doing anything as shocking, really. Maybe the closest came when Sasuke outright beat Naruto at the Valley of the End, but that's about it, to me.

Why isn't there much else? You see, there are these little plot tools called foreshadowings and hints and implications. Authors, manga-ka, they all use them. Was the fact that Naruto was a Wind-type a shock? Not if you see the various hints and foreshadowings. What about old, ripe Sandaime ending being strong? Not if you heeded Kakashi way back then, when he called him the strongest of all Kage.

From what I see, this is lots people on this forum's problems. They, or we, tend to over-analyze, over-scrutinize everything, so most of the time most theories here are shot. You're over-analyzing the concept of Kishimoto, a Shounen manga writer's, work. Again, this is a comic for children. Most of us are 15-22. This is not the most unpredictable story in the world. It's clear, obvious, in-your-face work most of the time. How many people are willing to wager that Naruto will not be as strong as Kakashi or Sasuke after this training? Few, because they know this "you may surpass me" business will come to pass. Such is the way of the Shounen manga.

Look, friend, you have no case here. If you want to read something where the author directly contradicts himself like crazy, check out George RR Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series, like I did. Before this book, maybe I wouldn't have been so against what you're saying so much now. But after reading this, it only affirmed more the notion that Shounen manga had a considerable amount predictability and obviousness to them.

Children's stories.
 
I don't really have the manga available to me right now, so I couldn't really search for specific things people said.

A not-so-good example is where a lot of characters were hyping the ultimate-defenses, and people WAY over-hyped the characters and thought of them as uber-gods (ignoring the people(person) who think(s) Neji>>>>all the bijuus).

Another not-very-good example is when Gai was talking about opening the gates and Lee in general talking about how he couldn't beat Gaara. (This is actually a bad example, I shouldn't use it, I only thought of it because I just read the page in another topic) and how even an experienced Jounin talking about 2 genins fighting can say something that he seems to believe and that he is very experienced and know what he's talking about. One reason this isn't a good exmaple is because there was a lot of hype about gaara too so it really could have gone either way.

But if I had the manga it would probably be way easier to find specific examples.
 
9Tail-Hokage said:
This isn't some intricate Hollywood movie that has many hidden meanings.

Has hollywood ever produced an intricate movie? :laugh

ON TOPIC: When some character tells something basically he may be lying or not. There are some fuzzy meanings which are connected to a character's personal view.

Example:

Oro said Sasuke was on par with KN3. He might be just taunting Naruto , telling the truth or both. At that point we had no clue about Sasuke's strenght. If Oro was telling the truth based on his conception that jutsu = power he was probably right, otherwise we had yet to see. If Oro was saying that Sasuke was more powerfull, then there was a big chance that he was lying, even though that was not the best way to taunt Naruto. He could just simply say that the body transfer was getting closer and closer and that if he didn't do shit Sasuke would be screwed.

Anyway....Further, Sasuke proved that he can deal with the strongest anbu of a generation (Sai) and the strongest anbu member (Yamato). After seeing that the scenario is changed completelly when you consider that Naruto is a story directed at teenagers: When an event support a comment you may bet that the comment was true.
 
9-Tails, to your entire post.

I'm trying to say that most of the problems I have with people in the theories they make are UNDER-analyzing the story, or POORLY analyzing the story.

I never have a problem with over-analyzers just because some of the theories put out are at least interesting if not far-fetched.

You mentioned there being foreshadowing and similar ideas. I'm saying that people COMPLETELY OVERLOOK obvious things like that.

I know that the average novel is probably about 1000x more intricate, and hard to predict, and with way more literary analysis possible.

I'm not saying that Naruto is. I'm saying that what little there is in Naruto, people STILL overlook. Like people who would say that Naruto would be a fire elemental and lightning elemental because Sasuke was, and they're rivals, and ignore the fact that they're practically complete opposites throughout the story.

And you're right, my grammar isn't perfect. But that doesn't change the fact that you were acting like a show-offy jerk. (show-offy is probably not a word, oh well)
 
dregoth said:
Has hollywood ever produced an intricate movie?
I brought it up, I said it. Yes.

God, don't tell me you want examples.

And you're right, my grammar isn't perfect. But that doesn't change the fact that you were acting like a show-offy jerk. (show-offy is probably not a word, oh well)
Far be it from to point out the obvious, which has been the theme of my posts in this thread, it seems. You tried to insult me by calling me stupid, so I point an error in your sentence as you do that. You think I'm bad. Wait until you sift through more people.

Welcome to the forums.

Over-analyzers are almost as bad as crappy analyzers. I don't really prefer either to the other, but they both happen. You deal with them as they come, not make a thread about this stuff; especially when a lot of what you're saying is inaccurate.
 
Oh I'm not saying that you're anywhere near as bad as the people on this forum, though you shouldn't use that as an excuse either.

Not only that, but I didn't call you stupid, I said your statement was stupid. Two very different things in my book.

I find that the over-analyzers tend to be much less adamant with their claims because they know that they're probably reaching with their conclusions.

But I think we really do agree on how much symbolism and foreshadowing and "underneath the underneath" there really is in the manga.

This topic is more of a rant about how sometimes people annoy me, I'm not meaning to say that this manga is like a twisted mystery novel, or even similar to it in any way.

This topic I suppose is the result of pent up anger directed towards specific people who always support whatever ridiculous conclusions they lead themselves to.

Though I still stand by this topic and wish that more people would actually take note when Kishi IS doing something that isn't word for word in the text.
 
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