I Pledge Allegiance to the Useless Old Fart of England

Black Wraith

<b>The Chosen One</b>
School-leavers should be encouraged to swear an oath of allegiance to Queen and country, says a report commissioned by Gordon Brown on British citizenship.

Report author, ex-attorney general Lord Goldsmith, says it would give teenagers a sense of belonging.

Council tax and student fee rebates are suggested for people who volunteer - as well as a "Britishness" public holiday.


The PM's spokesman said he welcomed the "interesting" review, adding that it had sparked "quite a lively debate".

However, John Dunford from the Association of School and College leaders said the citizenship ceremony was "a half-baked idea".


Graduation ceremonies

A Scottish Government spokesman said it did not support the plan and did not believe it would find favour with parents or school pupils.

Welsh Deputy First Minister Ieuan Wyn Jones said: "I don't think that's appropriate myself."

And Labour peer Baroness Kennedy said: "I think this is a serious mistake - I think it's puerile and I think it's rather silly.



CITIZENSHIP - KEY POINTS
Citizenship ceremonies for all young people - with possible inclusion of oath of allegiance to Queen
A British national day by 2012, linked to Olympics and the Queen's Diamond Jubilee
Scrapping or reforming ancient laws of Treason
Tuition fee and council tax rebates for volunteers
'Language loans' for newcomers to help them learn English


At-a-glance: Citizenship plans

"The symbols of a healthy democracy are not to be found in empty gestures and I'm afraid I see this as an empty gesture."


Lord Goldsmith, who quit government in June, believes that citizenship ceremonies for teenagers would help improve their sense of what it means to be a British citizen.

"Certainly there isn't a crisis of national identity, but the research does tend to show there's been a diminution in national pride, in this sense of belonging," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.


"The citizenship ceremonies, which are just one of the many things I have suggested, are a way of marking that passage of being a student of citizenship to a citizen in practice.

"It does make sense to promote a sense of shared belonging, a sense that you are part of a community with a common venture, to integrate better newcomers to our society and be clearer about what the rights and responsibilities are."


Lord Goldsmith said that while he favours an oath of allegiance to the Queen, the statement could be a pledge of commitment to the country or a statement of what the rights and responsibilities of citizens are.


What do teeenagers think?

In pictures

He also stressed that he could not see why Republicans would not want to swear an oath, even though they may not believe in the present system of government.

However, Graham Smith of the group Republic, which campaigns for the abolition of the monarchy, questioned whether children who refuse to take part will be told "they are somehow less British or less loyal or less patriotic".

Shadow justice secretary Nick Herbert said people would see straight through "synthetic patriotism" and that it was "profoundly un-British" to make them swear oaths of allegiance.

Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg said taking an active role in society was a better way of creating a sense of belonging for teenagers than asking people to swear allegiance.

Bank holiday

Citizenship ceremonies already exist for immigrants and the report suggests holding them in schools, where youngsters who are about to leave the school and move on to work or further education could participate.

HAVE YOUR SAY

What about swearing allegiance to the country instead of the Queen?

JP, London
Send us your comments

Lord Goldsmith says a new British national day should be established by 2012 to coincide with the Olympics and what will be the Queen's Diamond Jubilee.

It could operate in the same way as Australia Day, which is a public holiday on 26 January and is used to celebrate what it means to be an Australian.

And young people who volunteer could receive a reduction in tuition fees, while others who work in the community could be given a small council tax rebate.

A new "Deliberation Day" would be held before each General Election to encourage political debate and other events.

The peer also proposed that ministers should consider withdrawing Commonwealth and Irish citizens' right to vote in UK elections.


Nick Robinson
Is it really un-British to celebrate Britishness?
BBC political editor Nick Robinson

Read Nick's thoughts in full

But campaign group Unlock Democracy described this as a "gross insult to expect soldiers to die for this country while removing their right to have a say".

Lord Goldsmith has called for Britain's old treason laws to be scrapped or reformed. At the moment they include sleeping with the wife of the heir to the throne, which is punishable by life in prison.

The peer has also hinted at updating the national anthem by removing verses which are rarely performed.


I like the idea of another holiday!
 
'Lord' Goldsmith is a crackpot. What 'sense of belonging' would this totally meaningless pledge of allegiance to a monarchy create for teenagers?

I don't see why I should pledge allegiance to queen or country anyway.
 
Having the Queen is bullshit. It is time for this crap to end in england. People pay millions of pounds in tax just to keep that old bitch alive. End to the monarchy.....long live the REPUBLIC!!
 
So, how many other countries still have Monarchies?

And seriously.

What the fuck do they even do these days?
 
Is it really un-British to celebrate Britishness?

Yup. There is patriotism and then there is patriotism. There is being nonchalantly proud of being British, as is typically the traditional British way, and then there is turning it into a vacuous show devoid of any meaning with silly pledges and little flag broaches. The need to stand up and declare allegiance is just a nice way of missing the point.

But guys, the Queen brings in a shit load of tourism. She stays.
 
No no no just no.

I'm not swearing allegiance to anybody especially not an unelected tourist attraction. also the idea of council tax breaks in the article is nothing short of bribery.

The idea of Britishness is flawed anyway, in all my time in the UK i've never met a 'British' person they either describe them selves as English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish or Other.
 
I always have and always will wish that, that old bitch dies very shorty, what a usless old woman, srsly.
 
Good luck getting them Muslims over there to pledge allegiance to anything other than their Prophet and their God.

And, on a second note, from grade school onward, in any class or assembly that actually bothered with it in this day and age, I merely mouthed the Pledge, and realized by the time I was in high school that nobody was even looking at us individually anyway. :p
 
The Royal Family do more than we know. They just don't splash it about as much. Yes, the royals bring in a lot of tourism, keeping our economy nice and healthy. And we get rid of them, you know we're gunna go the same way America has gone. Sorry US types but your situ kinda sucks right now. A war-mongering, murderous President who'd love to be a dictator, who has ruined the US ecomony (I was shocked today at the exchange rate between dollars/yen/pounds - I'm English living in Japan getting paid in dollars - sucks for me!) as well as the country's credibility. And I do believe that if Tony Blair had been the only one in charge, we could have been dragged down too. I'm pretty patriotic, in a good way I think. I'm proud to be English/British. Yeah I like the monarchy. Woop woop for the Queen!
 
The Royal Family do more than we know. They just don't splash it about as much. Yes, the royals bring in a lot of tourism, keeping our economy nice and healthy. And we get rid of them, you know we're gunna go the same way America has gone. Sorry US types but your situ kinda sucks right now. A war-mongering, murderous President who'd love to be a dictator, who has ruined the US ecomony (I was shocked today at the exchange rate between dollars/yen/pounds - I'm English living in Japan getting paid in dollars - sucks for me!) as well as the country's credibility. And I do believe that if Tony Blair had been the only one in charge, we could have been dragged down too. I'm pretty patriotic, in a good way I think. I'm proud to be English/British. Yeah I like the monarchy. Woop woop for the Queen!

:headscrat So how exactly did the monarchy prevent Britain from downspiralling into this apocalyptic vision of yours? I'm sure the economy could cope without the tourism benefits the Queen herself specifically brings - since you could keep the Tower of London, Windsor Castle and Buckingham Palace for the history & tourism. If anything, pledging allegiance to an unelected head of state diminishes our credibility, and I agree with the poster above you - it breeds an 'us and them' attitude. I'm not going to get more into why I think patriotism or the monarchy is unnecessary, but I hope everyone can agree on Brown being silly on this.
 
To quote Strike Anywhere:

Look how the ruts cling to my footsteps
the fatal invisible tool
by which we define (we fight!) for our approval
and fear our removal from the safety of fools

From the tidal forces of our positions
not won (not one!) to take for granted
are our rebel hymns in canted
to sing in the mines of the fortunate sons?

Brothers in spirit, sisters in rage,
will we live out our lives in this concrete cage?
another heartbeat lost, another police murder
buried in the public eyes on the back page.
heartbeat lost in a new world order
hobbled and bound but still walking away

I pledge allegiance to the world
nothing more, nothing less than my humanity
I pledge allegiance to the world
searching for vision not invisibility
I pledge allegiance to the world
searching for vision not invisibility
I pledge allegiance to the world
until the last lock breaks none of us are free
none of us are free...

We fight to balance our minds
petty powers pushing profits over our lifetimes
world leaders mortgaging our lives with words
I don't need to be reminded of whom you really serve.

Brothers in spirit, sisters in rage,
will we live out our lives in this concrete cage?
another heartbeat lost, another police murder
buried in the public eyes on the back page.
{Too many} heartbeats lost in the new world order
{while we're} standing alone with our backs to the maze

I pledge allegiance to the world
nothing more, nothing less than my humanity
I pledge allegiance to the world
until the last lock breaks none of us are free
I pledge allegiance to the world
until the last lock breaks none of us are free
I pledge allegiance to the world
for nothing more, nothing less

In justice, in hunger united
searching for vision united
in justice, in hunger united
law and order {but} for whose order?

I pledge allegiance to the world
nothing more, nothing less than my humanity
I pledge allegiance to the world
until the last lock breaks none of us are free
I pledge allegiance to the world
under no nation will we ever be
I pledge allegiance to the world
for nothing more, nothing less
than my humanity, than my humanity, than my humanity (pledge allegiance!)
to our humanity, to our humanity, to our humanity (to the world!)
 
Whilst I'm all for a National Identity, this is not the way to do it.

Problems:

Firstly, the Monarchy. Yes, they're good for Tourism. Whoop-de-wee. They're still an outdated medieval institution crossbred with 20th century Celebrity, and for the few small good acts they do (Charity, mostly), the royals portray themselves as corrupt, inefficient priveliged bastards most of the time. (Don't even get me started on Charles :notrust)

There is no chance on earth I'm going to swear loyalty to these idiots - if they must be kept, they should be formally hamstrung of all power - as it stands, the Queen still has the power to dissolve Parliament and the Prime Minister, even when voted in democratically, must be approved by her before he takes office. That is in my mind, ridiculous, in this day and age. I have no loyalty to unelected remnants of the feudal system.

Secondly, I disagree with pledges of allegiance in general. It just seems to me to be far too similar to indoctrination. (Well, it is, really). If you tell children repeatedly "This is right," they will grow up believing it is right, and in many cases, even when they find that there's no logical reason for them to believe in it, it is so ingrained in them that they cannot let go of it. I have this problem with religion as well - in my mind, indoctrination is just bad, very, very bad.

Thirdly, as Le Male said, it promotes Nationalism, and though this is probably just a personal peeve of mine, I dislike Nationalism. I prefer faith in a global community rather than inward-looking isolationism and antagonising your neighbours. (I'm also an open Euro and Orientophile who favours Multiculturalism {or at least a modified form of it} greatly, so Nationalism is a big no-no from me).

I don't mind the implementation of a National Identity, and more focus on British culture rather than pandering to every minority at the expense of the majority, but this solution does not interest me at all.
 
My comment posted on the Have Your Say of the afore-linked article a few days ago:
Serenity said:
Can you imagine anything less British than this? Lord Goldsmith and others are confusing British pragmatism with apathy, and misfiring by suggesting that not only does this need a solution, but that the solution should be in the form of undemocratic and petty rituals.

The government needs to realise just how foul a taste this idea leaves in the mouths of those who would be affected. I, as a 20-year old student, would have refused this.

"Britishness" is our business; not the government's.
 
:lmao I laughed so much when I read this . It's so unbritish to start with, and it would be so funny if they actually made us do that :rotfl
 
I don't mind the monarchy in Britain, it's a figurehead and a part of their history and stuff. But I definately think they should update that rule about how the royals can only marry protestants. That's not cool. I don't live in Britain so i can't really form a solid opinion about this. What would have been more interesting to read about is what young people in Britain think about their monarchy.
 
The fact that the UK still has a queen (even if in name only) is scary enough. Now some want people to swear allegiance of sorts to a monarchy?

I say they should do away with the monarchy the same way that the French Revolution dealt away with theirs. It would really put them a head. :wink
 
I like the Queen and most of the royal family.

But i'm not swearing allegience to a prince of Wales, who is in fact, English.

Especially is one of his sons wore an English Rugby shirt in Twick. :notrust
 
The royals are hardly english really. Phillip is of Greek/Danish background with Elizabeth from Germanic background with bits of danish as well in her so can't claim the royals are that english lol. But if they want to wear an england shirt while watching England that is his perogative although during matches between home nations (plus any nation were they will be king) then they should not wear any national shirt.

But Xion you have to remember the Monarch in reality has no real power. Everything she does needs to be accepted by parliament. Plus if they chose to they could dethrone her at any moment. She also costs less than any president would cost who also would be mostly ceremonial cause there is no way Britain would give up it's westminster parliamentary democracy.
 
But if they want to wear an england shirt while watching England that is his perogative although during matches between home nations (plus any nation were they will be king) then they should not wear any national shirt.

I was against Wales, the country he is suposedly heir to be the prince of.
:notrust

But Xion you have to remember the Monarch in reality has no real power. Everything she does needs to be accepted by parliament. Plus if they chose to they could dethrone her at any moment. She also costs less than any president would cost who also would be mostly ceremonial cause there is no way Britain would give up it's westminster parliamentary democracy.

I also think she has to agree to laws before they can be used as well.

:huh
 
I also think she has to agree to laws before they can be used as well.

:huh

Nope she HAS to sign the laws into force, Even if the law said she (or the monarch who ever replaces her) was to have the crap beaten out of her every time she was in public if it was voted on in parliament.

The way it goes is that Commons makes a rule, Lords can either Reject it, amend it or pass it though to which the Monarch HAS to sign into law (it is actually just ceremonial as it usually is already law by this time). But anything the lords reject or amended can be re-pushed through in its original form by the commons which means that in the end the majority is in that area (one of the biggest was fox hunting issue which actually did affect the monarchy with their past times).

In theory she could, but if she did there would be so much of a constitutional crisis that she and perhaps the rest of the monarchy would be gone within a year of that happening and the United Kingdom would end up the United Republic for the first time (Cromwell was King in all but name that was no republic during his reign).

Also like I said the royals should not have shown support to England over Wales. That in itself is wrong as they are meant to represent all of the UK and nations where they are head of state. If it was England vs S. Africa, Japan, France, Italy or any nation where they are not Royalty then yes they should be allowed to prefer England over them. Ireland is iffy on because the team represents Northern Ireland also which is part of the UK so not sure about that one.

BTW congrats on the grand slam.
 
Nope she HAS to sign the laws into force, Even if the law said she (or the monarch who ever replaces her) was to have the crap beaten out of her every time she was in public if it was voted on in parliament.

The way it goes is that Commons makes a rule, Lords can either Reject it, amend it or pass it though to which the Monarch HAS to sign into law (it is actually just ceremonial as it usually is already law by this time). But anything the lords reject or amended can be re-pushed through in its original form by the commons which means that in the end the majority is in that area (one of the biggest was fox hunting issue which actually did affect the monarchy with their past times).

In theory she could, but if she did there would be so much of a constitutional crisis that she and perhaps the rest of the monarchy would be gone within a year of that happening and the United Kingdom would end up the United Republic for the first time (Cromwell was King in all but name that was no republic during his reign).

Also like I said the royals should not have shown support to England over Wales. That in itself is wrong as they are meant to represent all of the UK and nations where they are head of state. If it was England vs S. Africa, Japan, France, Italy or any nation where they are not Royalty then yes they should be allowed to prefer England over them. Ireland is iffy on because the team represents Northern Ireland also which is part of the UK so not sure about that one.

BTW congrats on the grand slam.

Understood now. Never done anything like this in school so I didn't have much infomation. :-(

Anyway this just goes to show how much 'Britian' is actually 'Britian' anymore. Britishness itself is an ugly word. They're just trying to hide that fact that 'Britian' is 'Broken'

=/

--

Oh and thank you. Henson I wasn't amused about at all though, but oh well. :amuse
 
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