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hokage kakashi vs hokage tsunade

Beyonce

Snake Prince
Animal Path using summonings doesn’t disprove my point since that’s literally its only ability, which doesn’t apply to anyone else. Naruto bringing large summons also doesn’t disprove my point since they knew they were going up against someone who used large summonings, and also it’s a bit of a special case since they were also there to stop the attack on Konoha, which is entirely dissimilar to the situation here.
Naruto didn’t know about animal path, nevertheless the rest of the pains to my understanding. Hence Tsunade giving katsuyu to Naruto to brief him.
And Naruto’s initial attempt to summon Gamabunta came after Gaara had at least partially transformed into a large monstrous form.
Not what you said. You said unless they’re fighting proportionally large opponents. Gaara was nowhere near the size of Gamabunta when Naruto attempted to summon him.
And you can call it CIS that in the dozen examples I gave where someone who could have utilized a large summoning failed to do so but at a certain point you have to recognize it’s not “Sasuke and Naruto and Oro and Tsunade were inflicted by CIS all the time” but rather “characters in the Narutoverse, Sannin included, when acting IC, don’t utilize summonings in regular fights against similarly sized opponents.”
Again doesn’t mean anything when Tsunade did so. If anything she’s exempt from this list
That Tsunade was seemingly the first to attempt to summon on the Sannin fight might seem like a reason to think she’ll repeat the feat there,
Not seemingly. She was. Re-read the panels, Orochimaru literally had a “!” When he realized she was going to summon against him.
but if you’re going to say Naruto was OoC vs Deidara then I’ll gladly point out that how an IC Tsunade acts when faced with Oro, having sustained a bunch of damage, trying to protect and heal Naruto, suddenly regaining her Will of Fire and deciding to become the Hokage is vastly different from how she would act fighting a 1v1 against plain old Kakashi.
What....? :lmao this is such an extreme stretch. That isn’t anything compared to a blood-lusted Naruto with Kyubi influence making him rage out. That was literally a plot point.
The argument that “Summonings are a Sannin thing” so they’ll definitely bring them out even against someone like Kakashi doesn’t hold much weight considering Oro’s failure to do so against Hiruzen
Because summoning Manda or any other large snake on a roof is not a smart idea
and Team Yamato, including KN4,
Because Orochimaru couldn’t use hand seals still. His hands were still unable to preform hand seals post-body switch as noted here



Common misconception is that he summoned rashomon therefore is able to use summoning, however Rashomon requires zero hand seals, as opposed to summoning jutsu



or Jiraiya not doing so until forced to do so by Animal Path,
How does this prove anything? The fight literally just began at that point and he summoned Gamaken primarily to buy time for Sage mode for mobility, not to directly fight his summons. Irrespective of that, he tells Gamaken he’s no longer needed despite the number of giant summoning increasing.



All this tells us is if a large summoning is needed, he’ll use it. If they serve no purpose, he won’t. Size of opponent isn’t nearly as relevant as you’re making it out to be
or Tsunade’s failure to do so against Madara at a time when Katsyuyu could have protected her against the clones,
Katsuyu is doing Jack shit against a person with large scale katons, the ability to genjutsu control summons, and has a defensive shield that negs any of her offensive capabilities. Summoning katsuyu does nothing for Tsunade besides waste her own chakra and likely end up killing the portion of katsuyu summoned.
healed the other Gokage,
Tsunade can’t heal the Gokage without being in stationary focus as seen every time anyone tries to do long distance healing
or used her vaunted acid spit to which Tsunade fans attribute so much power.
Lol? What Tsunade fan is saying acid can melt through susanoo? :lmao
 
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FlamingRain

Living Legend
Moderator
Does Kakashi really need any additional feats to prove that he is faster than Tsunade and more skilled in Taijutsu?

To the point that she couldn't tag him? Considering she has feats of keeping up with Edo Madara, yes.

Tsunade is far stronger but Kakashi's Taijutsu is on par with Gai's.

Unless this is a novel development Kakashi's Taijutsu is not on par with Gai's. It's stated otherwise and Gai wouldn't be virtually even with Kakashi if that didn't remain the case. Matching someone while having less variety requires you to surpass them by a wider margin in your specialty than you would otherwise need to.

Beyond that, his entire game plan revolves around clones and feeling out his opponents before putting himself in danger. If Tsunade hits him, it's almost guaranteed to be a clone. And if it's a raiton clone, that could be game over for Tsunade right then and there. Hokage Kakashi also has a lot more stamina than even his WA self so he will be able to utilize more clones than we ever saw him use in the manga.

The clone game is fair, but in your previous post it sounded like he would already be too good for her and that was just the icing on the cake. It's not exactly a secret that Kakashi likes those clone tactics though. Tsunade could avoid being zapped by incapacitating "Kakashi" with a medical Jutsu instead of destroying him with physical power.

Finally, there's Shiden. Which can be used as a 360 degree AOE stun as well as a close, mid, AND long-range "blade". Which means that he has the advantage both offensively and defensively in close quarters. So when you combine his speed and skill in Taijutsu, his tendency to use clones, and his lethal ninjutsu options... I'd say that he'll be pretty hard to hit in close quarters. Especially for someone like Tsunade, who isn't exactly known for her speed.

Sounds like Kakashi's new version of Nagashi and Eisō, which I'd argue wouldn't keep Tsunade from tagging Sasuke, so what exactly did Kakashi accomplish with it?

I already know of his raincloud feat but that's it, and Tsunade deflected a more numerous version of a Katon that could do that.
 

blk

Well-Known Member
Kakashi should stomp with purple lighting.

Tsunade can't defend against it only dodge, and she is slower than Kakashi so that isn't happening for long.

While kakashi, being faster, more agile, smarter and having a more versatile arsenal can avoid her punches for far longer.

Thus he will be the one who hits first.

Katsuyu is not relevant since Tsunade doesn't use it in 1on1.
 

Axiom

Well-Known Member
Naruto didn’t know about animal path, nevertheless the rest of the pains to my understanding. Hence Tsunade giving katsuyu to Naruto to brief him.

Not what you said. You said unless they’re fighting a proportionally large opponents. Gaara was nowhere near the size of Gamabunta when Naruto attempted to summon him.

Again doesn’t mean anything when Tsunade literally did so. If anything she’s exempt from this list

Not seemingly. She literally was. Re-read the panels, Orochimaru literally had a “!” When he realized she was going to summon against him.

What....? :lmao this is such an extreme stretch and you know it. That isn’t anything compared to a blood-lusted Naruto with Kyubi influence making him rage out. That’s literally a plot point.

Because summoning Manda or any other large snake on a roof is totally a smart idea.

Umm...? Because Orochimaru couldn’t use hand seals still? His hands were still unable to preform hand seals post-body switch as noted here



Common misconception is that he summoned rashomon therefore is able to use summoning, however Rashomon requires zero hand seals, as opposed to summoning jutsu




How does this prove anything? The fight literally just began at that point and he summoned Gamaken primarily to buy time for Sage mode for mobility, not to directly fight his summons. Irrespective of that, he tells Gamaken he’s no longer needed despite the number of giant summoning increasing.



All this tells us is if a large summoning is needed, he’ll use it. If they serve no purpose, he won’t. Size of opponent isn’t nearly as relevant as you’re making it out to be

Katsuyu is doing Jack shit against a person with large scale katons, the ability to genjutsu control summons, and has a defensive shield that negs any of her offensive capabilities. Summoning katsuyu does nothing for Tsunade besides waste her own chakra and likely end up killing the portion of katsuyu summoned.

Nice try but Tsunade can’t heal the Gokage without being in stationary focus as seen literally every time anyone tries to do long distance healing

Lol? What Tsunade fan is saying acid can melt through susanoo? :lmao

1. Whether Naruto knew is irrelevant since he wasn’t even the one who summoned the Gama trio, it was Ma, who had fought Pein and did know about Animal Path.

2. Regardless of what you consider “proportionally sized”, there’s a very clear and obvious difference between summoning a large monster against a monster that you’re unable to do any damage to versus summoning one against Kakashi.

3. You don’t have any argument against Tsunade’s IC actions Vs Oro being different than against Kakashi. Anyone with half a brain can see that the whole thing was just a set up for the Sannin deadlock anyway, just like what happened in the WA vs the Juubi. She’s not going to fight the same vs Kakashi, and even in the fight you’re referencing she had to get beaten down and impaled repeatedly by Kabuto and Oro before resorting to summoning Katsyuyu. And by the way, literally the first thing she tells Katsyuyu to do is take Naruto away to safety, so this summoning is once again primarily for a defensive/healing purpose rather than how she would be using it vs Kakashi.

4. Why does being on a roof matter? What’s he gonna do, die from the fall? Sure beats losing his arms. He wasn’t moved to summon even after Hiruzen did.

5. Kabuto was around at the start, they could have summoned snakes if they wanted but Orochimaru never expressed any interest in doing so and was more than happy to fight without them.

6. You’re pointing out how little Jiraiya relies upon summonings and how he tells Gamaken to leave once he reaches SM, but that only underscores my point that the Sannins’ fighting style doesn’t revolve around immediately bringing out summons, so… okay. If summonings were as integral to the Sannin as you say then surely Gamaken should have been used for something more useful than “buying time”.

7. Katsyuyu would have been useful at various times during the fight, like when the entire Gokage got hit by the Mokuton that put them to sleep (could have his inside Katsyuyu) or again, just to help Tsunade with the wood clones. Even if Katsyuyu can’t kill the clones she could just absorb hits from behind Tsunade so that she doesn’t get impaled by multiple swords like what happened in canon. Genjutsu doesn’t matter when Tsunade can just break her out (or Katsyuyu can close her “eyes”) and since when was Katsyuyu unable to withstand Katons? If Tsunade isn’t summoning Katsyuyu in this situation, to protect the Gokage or help fend off 5 Susano’o clones, she’s not doing it in a 1v1 against Kakashi.
 
To the point that she couldn't tag him? Considering she has feats of keeping up with Edo Madara, yes.
Kakashi's speed has been praised and emphasized numerous times throughout the manga and his feats back that up. As far as I can recall, there is nothing to suggest that Tsunade is on par with Kakashi when it comes to speed. Including her performance against Madara.

Unless this is a novel development Kakashi's Taijutsu is not on par with Gai's. It's stated otherwise and Gai wouldn't be virtually even with Kakashi if that didn't remain the case. Matching someone while having less variety requires you to surpass them by a wider margin in your specialty than you would otherwise need to.
Kakashi's Taijutsu is on par with base Gai. His feats also back that up. Kakashi is at the very least comparable to the best Taijutsu user in the manga. In terms of skill and finesse, there's no doubt he is above Tsunade.

The clone game is fair, but in your previous post it sounded like he would already be too good for her and that was just the icing on the cake. It's not exactly a secret that Kakashi likes those clone tactics though. Tsunade could avoid being zapped by incapacitating "Kakashi" with a medical Jutsu instead of destroying him with physical power.
I would still say that it is icing on the cake. I'm simply reinforcing why I think he wins by arguing what would happen in the event that she does manage to hit him. And Tsunade isn't winning the tactics game against Kakashi. She can predict that he will use clones against her but that won't stop him from outsmarting her regardless. He has outsmarted the likes of Itachi, Pain, Obito, and Kaguya.

Sounds like Kakashi's new version of Nagashi and Eisō, which I'd argue wouldn't keep Tsunade from tagging Sasuke, so what exactly did Kakashi accomplish with it?
Shiden is basically a lightsaber that can be extended to mid-long range. If we're assuming that Kakashi will be on the defensive (which I'm not, by the way) then Tsunade runs the risk of losing limbs, getting bisected, etc. as she is swinging at him. He won't be passive in the exchange and while her attacks are powerful, his have more range and will slice through any part of her that it connects with. I'd say that she'd have a pretty hard time hitting him with an arm that is no longer attached to her body.
 

FlamingRain

Living Legend
Moderator
Kakashi's speed has been praised and emphasized numerous times throughout the manga and his feats back that up. As far as I can recall, there is nothing to suggest that Tsunade is on par with Kakashi when it comes to speed. Including her performance against Madara.

Characters much slower than Edo Madara have been praised for their speed and had it emphasized numerous times as well. Hebi Sasuke is one such character. Taka Sasuke is superior to him and yet gets intercepted by Darui's Suiton while Tsunade goes intercepting projectiles too quick for Mei's. Madara can put up a guard in time to block V2 Raikage despite looking at Mei's Yōton until the last moment, but Tsunade can still adjust her kick beneath his guard fresh out of Mabui's Tensō, land a punch on him before sustaining an injury and evade his Susano'o blade at the last second.

Her speed doesn't even need to be on par with Kakashi's, just high enough to keep up with his. If she can keep up with Madara in close range she can do the same with Kakashi.

Kakashi's Taijutsu is on par with base Gai. His feats also back that up. Kakashi is at the very least comparable to the best Taijutsu user in the manga. In terms of skill and finesse, there's no doubt he is above Tsunade.

I know which Gai you were referring to but Gai's feats are still superior to Kakashi's in base. Kakashi's Taijutsu growth wouldn't outstrip Gai's when Taijutsu is all Gai uses, and Gai started in the lead.

I would still say that it is icing on the cake. I'm simply reinforcing why I think he wins by arguing what would happen in the event that she does manage to hit him. And Tsunade isn't winning the tactics game against Kakashi. She can predict that he will use clones against her but that won't stop him from outsmarting her regardless. He has outsmarted the likes of Itachi, Pain, Obito, and Kaguya.

I agree she won't win the tactics game, but you don't need to win it to protect yourself from an opponent's tactics.

Shiden is basically a lightsaber that can be extended to mid-long range. If we're assuming that Kakashi will be on the defensive (which I'm not, by the way) then Tsunade runs the risk of losing limbs, getting bisected, etc. as she is swinging at him. He won't be passive in the exchange and while her attacks are powerful, his have more range and will slice through any part of her that it connects with. I'd say that she'd have a pretty hard time hitting him with an arm that is no longer attached to her body.

Whatever she loses would return through regen and she can at least make bisection more challenging by messing with the terrain, but if he opted to use that while backing up then yes that would make it pretty hard to hit him.
 

~Kakashi~

Well-Known Member
Kakashi's Taijutsu is on par with base Gai. His feats also back that up. Kakashi is at the very least comparable to the best Taijutsu user in the manga. In terms of skill and finesse, there's no doubt he is above Tsunade.
No, no it's not. Kakashi even with sharingan precog on his side can't match base Gai's best feats. Gai's done things like disarm Kisame and move with so much speed/skill that Obito couldn't even lay a finger on him, and then block an attack he didn't even see coming or have warning of.

Nothing Kakashi has done matches that. Kakashi couldn't physically disarm Zabuza or Hidan. Kakashi couldn't avoid getting struck by Deva Path's black stick thingy. Again, this despite having an advantage Gai does not in having sharingan precog.
 
Characters much slower than Edo Madara have been praised for their speed and had it emphasized numerous times as well. Hebi Sasuke is one such character. Taka Sasuke is superior to him and yet gets intercepted by Darui's Suiton while Tsunade goes intercepting projectiles too quick for Mei's. Madara can put up a guard in time to block V2 Raikage despite looking at Mei's Yōton until the last moment, but Tsunade can still adjust her kick beneath his guard fresh out of Mabui's Tensō, land a punch on him before sustaining an injury and evade his Susano'o blade at the last second.
But Kakashi has the feats to back up his praise. Can you point out any more examples of Tsunade being shown to be a speedster? From the beginning of the manga to the very end, Kakashi was shown to be a speedster through hype, statements, and feats. His DB stat for speed is a 4.5. Tsunade's is a 3.5. Whether you put much weight behind databook stats or not... that's a big gap to consider. If Kishi intended to portray Tsunade as a speedster she would have gotten an ounce of the same treatment that Kakashi did in this regard.

Her speed doesn't even need to be on par with Kakashi's, just high enough to keep up with his. If she can keep up with Madara in close range she can do the same with Kakashi.
Okay, let's throw everything I just said out of the window and assume that miraculously, Tsunade is now on par with Kakashi in terms of speed. Now she has to contend with clones, superior tactics, and mid-long range ninjutsu that she cannot counter.

I know which Gai you were referring to but Gai's feats are still superior to Kakashi's in base. Kakashi's Taijutsu growth wouldn't outstrip Gai's when Taijutsu is all Gai uses, and Gai started in the lead.
Fair enough. "Comparable" is a better choice of word than "on par". He is Gai's sparring partner. He likely copied Gai's technique with his sharingan in the same way that Sasuke copied Lee. He trained with Gai when he wanted to learn how to fight against MS. He can open the first gate. His Taijutsu feats against characters like Zabuza, Hidan, and Obito speak for themselves. His Taijutsu showings are simply more impressive than Tsunade's in terms of finesse and skill.

I agree she won't win the tactics game, but you don't need to win it to protect yourself from an opponent's tactics.
I guess? That doesn't extend beyond the knowledge that she has. Like, she might expect and prepare for a clone... that doesn't mean she'll be able to predict what Kakashi will do beyond that. And he has fooled smarter opponents.

The arm would return through regen and she has another. In addition to that, it only takes a quick stamp of a free foot to tear up the terrain, mess with Kakashi's swing and make bisection more challenging.
Is Tsunade gonna pop out a new arm like Piccolo? I don't recall her regen ever being shown to be that fast. She needed help to put herself back together when she was torn in half by Madara. And uh... throwing him off balance isn't going to send his arms flailing like a cartoon character. This is a literal beam of electricity that he can emit from his hand and extend to great lengths. It's not going to take much for him to keep it aimed in her general direction.

And this is all assuming that Kakashi will be on the back foot which, again, I do not assume. But once again, let's assume that he's on the defensive. Let's assume that he can't keep his arms in front of his body, ready to slice her in half. Let's assume she safety disables his clone with a "medical jutsu". Okay, all of that happened. And now ANOTHER clone is going to fight her, only this time he's only going to use Shiden from mid to long range and he's prepared for her to stomp the ground. Keep in mind, Hokage Kakashi kept a village-sized doton wall up for hours. He's got stamina for days without the sharingan draining him and he can afford to play the long game here. Which again, I don't think will be required.
 
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Hollows

New Member
I don't know anything about the novels but Kakashi loses a lot of perks without his Sharingan and on top of that some of his most powerful techniques that could've helped him. Tsunade got the power to actually damage him badly and with her "strength of a hundred seals" just makes it easier not even counting the fact she can heal herself with it too I don't see what Kakashi can really do. And I can't see her getting out sped by him either so unless he got some crazy feats in the novel this is a win for Tsunade.
 

FlamingRain

Living Legend
Moderator
But Kakashi has the feats to back up his praise.

So does Sasuke.

Can you point out any more examples of Tsunade being shown to be a speedster? From the beginning of the manga to the very end, Kakashi was shown to be a speedster through hype, statements, and feats. His DB stat for speed is a 4.5. Tsunade's is a 3.5. Whether you put much weight behind databook stats or not... that's a big gap to consider. If Kishi intended to portray Tsunade as a speedster she would have gotten an ounce of the same treatment that Kakashi did in this regard.

She didn't get the chance to do much else as Hokage so not really. Her panel time is nothing like Kakashi's so we should be looking at the quality of their feats instead of the quantity. DB stats are measured independently of Chakra enhancement and Sakura's talent for it flourishing more under Tsunade than Kakashi may say something.

Fair enough. "Comparable" is a better choice of word than "on par". He is Gai's sparring partner. He likely copied Gai's technique with his sharingan in the same way that Sasuke copied Lee. He trained with Gai when he wanted to learn how to fight against MS. He can open the first gate. His Taijutsu feats against characters like Zabuza, Hidan, and Obito speak for themselves. His Taijutsu showings are simply more impressive than Tsunade's in terms of finesse and skill

If you're alright with databook stats Kakashi's showings against Zabuza and Hidan were back when he only scored a 4.5 to Tsunade's 5. He might have reached the point where he would also score a 5 if those stats were still a thing in DB4, but his display against Obito in the Kamui world wasn't anything Tsunade couldn't replicate.

Is Tsunade gonna pop out a new arm like Piccolo? I don't recall her regen ever being shown to be that fast. She needed help to put herself back together when she was torn in half by Madara. And uh... throwing him off balance isn't going to send his arms flailing like a cartoon character. This is a literal beam of electricity that he can emit from his hand and extend to great lengths. It's not going to take much for him to keep it aimed in her general direction.

And this is all assuming that Kakashi will be on the back foot which, again, I do not assume. But once again, let's assume that he's on the defensive. Let's assume that he can't keep his arms in front of his body, ready to slice her in half. Let's assume she safety disables his clone with a "medical jutsu". Okay, all of that happened. And now ANOTHER clone is going to fight her, only this time he's only going to use Shiden from mid to long range and he's prepared for her to stomp the ground. Keep in mind, Hokage Kakashi kept a village-sized doton wall up for hours. He's got stamina for days without the sharingan draining him and he can afford to play the long game here. Which again, I don't think will be required.

The regeneration has never taken more than seconds. It's called instant even when the wound is life-threatening so I assume a greater injury would just consume more Chakra within a similar window of time as opposed to taking proportionately longer. She needed Katsuyu's help after she was torn in half because she was low on Chakra (had reverted to base and could barely treat her less grievously injured allies). I'm not talking only about Tsunade causing a quake but the actual upheaval of the field. Kakashi's whole body would be shifted. We've seen him sent bouncing across the ground by this sort of thing before. Altering terrain = reorienting the angle Kakashi is sitting at = diminishing chance of successful bisection.

You started replying before I made the edit to the end of my last post so if you hadn't looked back I agreed he'd be very hard to hit if he chose to attack from longer range. That's not close quarters anymore though.
 

DaVizWiz

Well-Known Member
From the feats I’ve heard about the novel this shouldn’t be a challenge for Kakashi

Long range lightning, retaining precognition and scrimmaging with Hagoromo on a colossal scale the loss of Kamui isn’t of much relevance a slower brawler can’t beat a fighter of that design who can dig and switch clones with the best of them, it’s a horrendous matchup for a CQC specialist like Tsunade
 
So does Sasuke.
And I would consider Sasuke to be faster than Tsunade as well.

She didn't get the chance to do much else as Hokage so not really. Her panel time is nothing like Kakashi's so we should be looking at the quality of their feats instead of the quantity. DB stats are measured independently of Chakra enhancement and Sakura's talent for it flourishing more under Tsunade than Kakashi may say something.
Okay. But Kakashi has a high quantity of quality feats. I don't think this discussion on speed is going anywhere. If you don't think that Kakashi is fast enough to avoid Tsunade in close quarters, so be it. I disagree. It's a moot point anyway, considering it doesn't change the outcome of the fight when you consider all of the other factors that I've brought up.

If you're alright with databook stats Kakashi's showings against Zabuza and Hidan were back when he only scored a 4.5 to Tsunade's 5. He might have reached the point where he would also score a 5 if those stats were still a thing in DB4, but his display against Obito in the Kamui world wasn't anything Tsunade couldn't replicate.
There are many facets of each stat. I'm arguing that Kakashi has shown more finesse and skill in Taijutsu. I don't agree that she could replicate his fights with the same finesse. Which doesn't necessarily mean that she couldn't beat those opponents in her own way. But the reason that I'm talking about finesse in particular is to reinforce my argument that he will be hard for Tsunade to hit in CQC.

The regeneration has never taken more than seconds. It's called instant even when the wound is life-threatening so I assume a greater injury would just consume more Chakra within a similar window of time as opposed to taking proportionately longer. She needed Katsuyu's help after she was torn in half because she was low on Chakra (had reverted to base and could barely treat her less grievously injured allies). I'm not talking only about Tsunade causing a quake but the actual upheaval of the field. Kakashi's whole body would be shifted. We've seen him sent bouncing across the ground by this sort of thing before. Altering terrain = reorienting the angle Kakashi is sitting at = diminishing chance of successful bisection.
We've also never seen her regenerate entire limbs. You really think she's just going to pop out new arms and legs and not be slowed down or hindered at all? Or that Kakashi will stop at one limb when he could just keep swinging until she's in pieces?

I think we can put the ground punching talk to bed, unless you think that it can actually win the fight for Tsunade. I don't really feel like arguing in circles about how effective it would be at preventing Kakashi from hitting Tsunade when it's just going to lead to the problem of clones and long range ninjutsu again. So fair enough. She'll punch the ground a lot and prolong the inevitable.

You started replying before I made the edit to the end of my last post so if you hadn't looked back I agreed he'd be very hard to hit if he chose to attack from longer range. That's not close quarters anymore though.
Fair enough. So you think Tsunade can contend with or even overwhelm Kakashi in CQC. Does that change the outcome of the fight in your opinion? When you consider everything we've discussed outside of CQC? Ranged ninjutsu, clones, superior tactics, etc.?
 

Architect

A Minato stan from Minatostan
There are many facets of each stat. I'm arguing that Kakashi has shown more finesse and skill in Taijutsu. I don't agree that she could replicate his fights with the same finesse.
Yeah, I am sure Tsunade earned her 5 for mastering CES strikes since they count as taijutsu.
Whenever she appeared fighting on the screen, she was either conducting linear and ample attacks, was impaled on Susanoo swords or was dominated by the guy whose taijutsu was between 2.5 and 3.5 + pills (even though she was rusty, that's just too meh for someone who would have 5 in taijutsu for her skill in a 3 years). Her style and performances are quite inconvincing in terms skill.
 

FlamingRain

Living Legend
Moderator
And I would consider Sasuke to be faster than Tsunade as well.

Yet his feats are less impressive than those Tsunade gained in the Kages' battle with Madara.

Okay. But Kakashi has a high quantity of quality feats.

Owing quite a lot to panel time. The quality should be all we're concerned about. Take any racing sport as an example and all they care about is the time your time, not how often you've repeated it.

There are many facets of each stat. I'm arguing that Kakashi has shown more finesse and skill in Taijutsu.

The databook specifies that it is referring to skill in the Nin, Tai, and Genjutsu statistics though. Tsunade lacking in finesse compared is just a board myth fueled by how destructive she can be. Focusing on how they move instead of looking at their raw stats and Kakashi doesn't look any better than she does.

We've also never seen her regenerate entire limbs. You really think she's just going to pop out new arms and legs and not be slowed down or hindered at all? Or that Kakashi will stop at one limb when he could just keep swinging until she's in pieces?

No, but then the only time she's lost them on-panel she was Chakra depleted, and again the regrowth is stated to occur immediately even when the wound is life-threatening kind of grave. She doesn't necessarily have to stop her assault because loses a limb when she has others to work with, as Chiyo and Raikage have proven.

I think we can put the ground punching talk to bed, unless you think that it can actually win the fight for Tsunade. I don't really feel like arguing in circles about how effective it would be at preventing Kakashi from hitting Tsunade when it's just going to lead to the problem of clones and long range ninjutsu again. So fair enough. She'll punch the ground a lot and prolong the inevitable.

Very well. You said punch and I didn't, so I just want to clarify that I'm not talking about Tsunade doing what Sakura did in the bell test or against the Jūbling horde. I meant literally using a free foot as she's already in motion. She's not aiming to wreck the entire battlefield and launch him sky high, just pursuing a positional advantage up close.

That would force Kakashi to stop swinging before reducing her to pieces.

Fair enough. So you think Tsunade can contend with or even overwhelm Kakashi in CQC. Does that change the outcome of the fight in your opinion? When you consider everything we've discussed outside of CQC? Ranged ninjutsu, clones, superior tactics, etc.?

Maybe, depending on how expansive that village you mentioned is supposed to be and how Chakra intensive Shiden is. If those indicate his stamina is now high enough that he can force her to regenerate too much from range then superiority in close-quarters wouldn't change the outcome. Kind of hard to imagine his increase would be that drastic though.

WA Kakashi would still have to warp her with Kamui.
 
Owing quite a lot to panel time. The quality should be all we're concerned about. Take any racing sport as an example and all they care about is the time your time, not how often you've repeated it.
Okay, I can't really argue against the fact that Tsunade didn't get enough panel time to form a convincing resume. Kakashi is faster than her based on hype, portrayal, DB stats, and feats. I don't know what else to say.

The databook specifies that it is referring to skill in the Nin, Tai, and Genjutsu statistics though. Tsunade lacking in finesse compared is just a board myth fueled by how destructive she can be. Focusing on how they move instead of looking at their raw stats and Kakashi doesn't look any better than she does.
I disagree. Can't really convince you otherwise though. We've seen both of them in combat enough to know that Kakashi moves with more finesse than Tsunade.

No, but then the only time she's lost them on-panel she was Chakra depleted, and again the regrowth is stated to occur immediately even when the wound is life-threatening kind of grave. She doesn't necessarily have to stop her assault because loses a limb when she has others to work with, as Chiyo and Raikage have proven.
And Kakashi doesn't necessarily have to stop at one limb. He doesn't even have to aim for a limb. He could cut her head off. Cut her body in half. Cut both arms off at the same time. In fact, a sweeping motion with Shiden is more likely than not to hit more than a single limb. He'd have to go out of his way to only hit a single limb.

I can't argue against speculation. But even if I believed that she could shrug off a lost limb and remain 100% combat effective with no delay, it wouldn't help her when she's decapitated and/or bisected. The idea that she's going to pop out new limbs like it's nothing is already fanfiction material but if you think that she's going to sprout an entirely new body after losing her head then we'll never agree here.

Maybe, depending on how expansive that village you mentioned is supposed to be and how Chakra intensive Shiden is. If those indicate his stamina is now high enough that he can force her to regenerate too much from range then superiority in close-quarters wouldn't change the outcome. Kind of hard to imagine his increase would be that drastic though.
Is it really that hard to imagine? His stamina was already insane in the WA, which is likely owed to his mastery over the Sharingan. Now he doesn't have to worry about the Sharingan constantly draining his stamina at all.
 
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