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Hebi Sasuke vs Kisame

MustardPN

Well-Known Member

VS

Location: Sasuke vs Itachi
Distance: 30m
Knowledge: Rep
Mindset: Serious, Fighting to Kill
Restrictions: None
Round 2: Taka Sasuke
 

Troyse22

Shuts down the Sannin camp

VS

Location: Sasuke vs Itachi
Distance: 30m
Knowledge: Rep
Mindset: Serious, Fighting to Kill
Restrictions: None
Round 2: Taka Sasuke

We know several things.

1. Kisame is physically stronger than even CS2 Sasuke as Kisame has feats of wrestling with V2 Jinchuuriki and breaking Yamatos Chakra suppressing Mokuton which restrained KN4 Naruto without much difficulty. Sasuke dies if he takes the full brunt of Kisames strength.

2. Kisame is more skilled at CQC than Sasuke. Kisame has outright beaten more skilled people in CQC than Sasuke has, one of whom is Killer Bee who outright beat Sasuke in that department, another is Might Gai who equaled Rinnegan Obito in CQC.

Sasuke isn't Gai. Sasuke needs Chakra to do massive damage and Kisame will eat that for breakfast. Kirin won't be enough (though the notion of him even getting it off against Kisame is laughable to say the least)

Short of decapitation Sasuke can't kill Kisame. Even a Chidori to the heart won't stop him as we've seen him lose all vital organs aside from his brain and it didn't even knock him unconscious.

EMS Sasuke vs Kisame is more reasonably discussionworthy, but anything before EMS and Sasuke loses hard.
 

Kisame

鮫仙
In CQC Sasuke is faster, has sharingan, CS and survivability. Kisame's strength likely won't be a bigger factor than Sasuke's CQC snake ninjutsu, 3T genjutsu and CS amp.

Kisame's Suitons can be dodged or blocked by snake meatshields, giant snake summons or Manda. Kisame will be hard pressed to deal with both Manda and Sasuke which could leave him very open to subtle genjutsu (like Deidara), sudden CS amp, and snakes. If Sasuke is severely wounded he can use Oral Rebirth, he could use it even as a surprise attack like he did against Itachi. Kisame could outlast but Sasuke can use Kirin with no chakra left, so even that route is not guaranteed for Kisame.

Kirin, Manda, 3T genjutsu and CS2 give Sasuke the win. Basically Sasuke can match him directly whereas Kisame will be hard pressed against Sasuke's indirect tricks (genjutsu, CS, Oral Rebirth).

Sasuke is generally stronger as he has a Kage-level boss summon, an S-rank finisher that while requires some prep can be used with no chakra left, a Senjutsu boost and the powers of the white snake. Mid-level Akatsuki like Deidara are below a restricted Hebi Sasuke and restricted high kages like Sick Itachi can be pushed by him.
 

Shazam

⚡⚡⚡
Kisame curbs

Kisame eats.

Kisame for the win IMO.

Hebi Saskue wins. Him and Kisame are in the same general tier and if anything are essentially peers in power. But I favor Saskue here.

Saskue is much faster than Kisame and has demonstrated better feats which can be augmented by CS 1 or 2. Kisame also can't absorb his chakra because of Nature Energy aka Senjutsu unless he wants to be turned into a statue and get smashed to peices.

He can also use CS2 Wings to block Kisame's attacks like he did against Deidara's C2 against Fire Style from Itachi. Man also has fodder snakes that can restrain a bloodlusted CS1 Juugo and Suigetsu he also can block attacks with said snakes too lmao.

Man also can't do fuck all against genjutsu which landed on Deidara someone who had a ''counter'' for it and . Raiton just also fucks over Kisame's durability. Smack on CS1 or 2 and on top of a water user and he's gonna have a bad day.

Waterdome is countered by Manda stalling Kisame or transporting Saskue out of the dome. Mane can then prep Kirin outside of the dome or gg him with genjutsu that tagged a much faster fighter

Kirin also isn't chakra so that shits on Daikodan.

Saskue wins with high to extreme difficulty.
 

Sleepless

Well-Known Member
Nah he ain't faster. Base Kisame ~ Base Bee >/= Taka Sasuke>Hebi Sasuke in speed. Base Kisame also can react to Gai with his Gates open. I agree with chakra absorption but is doesn't matter, Sasuke isn't going to start the fight in CS2 and it will only matter when Sasuke is in CS2, which is another end game move for him.

Samehada can likely just eats CS2 off of Sasuke. The reason why I don't think it will turn to stone, or Kisame for that matter, is because Pain had to absorb a full SM off of Naruto to turn into stone. CS2 is nothing to SM. Kisame can also catch Sasuke by suprise with his Water Prisons and drain Sasuke with his constant water attacks, for example, casually making thousands of sharks that will chase Sasuke around. In hand to hand, Sasuke is weaker, he has no strength feats in comparison. and even V1. It takes Version 1 Cloak for Bee to annihilate Taka Sasuke, it takes Version 2 Cloak to do the same to Kisame. Kisame heals with Samehada. Samehada has spikes to damage Sasuke. A 30% Kisame clone is strong enough to force Guy to the 6th Gate, a drained Kisame without Samehada can still perform giagantic techniques. Water Shark Bomb needs the 7th Gate to combat. Hirudora is more powerful than anything in Sasuke's arsenal other than Kirin.

Kisame regularly spars with Itachi, don't think genjutsu means anything. Kisame knows better than to look Sasuke in the eyes too.

Kisame also has way more chakra so he can outlast. His chakra reserves is Bijuu tier and the .

Sasuke doesn't summon Manda IC and only did as a last resort, even Manda might be a detriment to Sasuke as well, why would he listen to Sasuke's orders? He didn't listen to even a healthy Orochimaru and would eat him. Sasuke basically has nothing to counter water dome, so when it comes out it's pretty much game over. Kisame will not let Sasuke take any action (make the seals to summon Manda and then reverse summon) because he's so much faster in water.

Kirin takes a bit of prep which I don't think the fight will last that long anyway.
 
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MaruUchiha

The Fourth Six Paths
Sasuke high diffs. He can use CS2 to fly out of range of Kisame's attacks, Samehada will have serious trouble absorbing Sasuke's stronger Fire Style attacks, and even Kurenai's genjutsu was gonna work on Kisame had Itachi not saved him. If Kisame doesn't get beat by Sharingan genjutsu or Fire Style first then Kirin finishes it since it can't be absorbed
 

Shazam

⚡⚡⚡
Hebi Saskue wins. Him and Kisame are in the same general tier and if anything are essentially peers in power. But I favor Saskue here.

Saskue is much faster than Kisame and has demonstrated better feats which can be augmented by CS 1 or 2. Kisame also can't absorb his chakra because of Nature Energy aka Senjutsu unless he wants to be turned into a statue and get smashed to peices.

He can also use CS2 Wings to block Kisame's attacks like he did against Deidara's C2 against Fire Style from Itachi. Man also has fodder snakes that can restrain a bloodlusted CS1 Juugo and Suigetsu he also can block attacks with said snakes too lmao.

Man also can't do fuck all against genjutsu which landed on Deidara someone who had a ''counter'' for it and . Raiton just also fucks over Kisame's durability. Smack on CS1 or 2 and on top of a water user and he's gonna have a bad day.

Waterdome is countered by Manda stalling Kisame or transporting Saskue out of the dome. Mane can then prep Kirin outside of the dome or gg him with genjutsu that tagged a much faster fighter

Kirin also isn't chakra so that shits on Daikodan.

Saskue wins with high to extreme difficulty.

Seems I have struck a nerve lol
 

Sleepless

Well-Known Member
Taka Sasuke was weakened from injuries against Itachi. In addition, Sasuke here has a Senjutsu seal amping him up.
He was weakened from injuries? He had zero injuries when he fought Bee (basically his main taka fight). Also CS2 can still be reacted to by Deidara.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Either way

Not either way, Sasuke being weakened is a fact.

it's unquantifiable. Just Taka Sasuke is weaker than usual

Much weaker, as per Juugo's statement.

MS is also an amp on top of his Base Hebi version

And Sasuke's base is inferior to his Base Hebi version. The MS didn't amp Sasuke's reflexes at this point IIRC, only at the FKS is Sasuke actually implied to be boosted (where Karin states his chakra has grown colder than that of the Sage Mark).

Healthy Hebi Sasuke > Healthy Taka Sasuke > Weakened Taka Sasuke

...? . Obviously Deidara reacts to CS2 Sasuke.

Ae you kidding?! Deidara doesn't react to Sasuke MOVING, he reacts to Sasuke AFTER he finished moving in the first image and Sasuke isn't even moving in the second image lmao. This is also Deidara using C2, Deidara with C1 admitted Sasuke was too fast for him.
 

Sleepless

Well-Known Member
Much weaker, as per Juugo's statement.
Nope, it's unquantifiable. You can't calculate how much slower he is from his peak Taka Sasuke self based on that statement. He's just not at full health. Losing the CS is just a loss of transformation, which doesn't affect his base.
And Sasuke's base is inferior to his Base Hebi version. The MS didn't amp Sasuke's reflexes at this point IIRC, only at the FKS is Sasuke actually implied to be boosted (where Karin states his chakra has grown colder than that of the Sage Mark).

Healthy Hebi Sasuke > Healthy Taka Sasuke > Weakened Taka Sasuke
Nope.

Peak Base Taka Sasuke>Peak Base Hebi Sasuke. Peak Taka is boosted by MS which is inherently an increase in power and it get stronger overtime but awakening it in the first place is tapping into stronger power than the three tomoe. Especially after devoloping more hate for Konoha.

We know MS and curse of hatred is already an increase so Karin commenting on it later doesn't change anything.
Ae you kidding?! Deidara doesn't react to Sasuke MOVING, he reacts to Sasuke AFTER he finished moving in the first image and Sasuke isn't even moving in the second image lmao.
Nope. Read. He literally says "lateral movement" after seeing Sasuke run. If he can't react to Sasuke, he wouldn't see him run and comment on how he is moving. Also Sasuke is moving to fly which Deidara reacts to and manages to hit Sasuke before he can dodge on that ocassion. If Deidara can't react, Sasuke flys away before Deidara sees anything.
 

Billybags

New Member
Saskue is much faster than Kisame
How? For their one common opponent, Kisame had MUCH better speed feats. Dodging and blocking a 2 sided attack when sasuke could barely react, even with a better sharingan with an MS amp.
and has demonstrated better feats which can be augmented by CS 1 or 2. Kisame also can't absorb his chakra because of Nature Energy aka Senjutsu unless he wants to be turned into a statue and get smashed to peices.
Outside of Kirin what he do that was better? If they go Jutsu to Jutsu Kisame obliterates him.

You only get turned into a statue if you absorb above your amount chakra, breaking that balance. Yeah, good luck tipping Kisame over that balance. Even Hungry ghost took a whole sage Naruto and a half before turning to stone. Sasuke has no where near the amount of sage chakra.
He can also use CS2 Wings to block Kisame's attacks like he did against Deidara's C2 against Fire Style from Itachi. Man also has fodder snakes that can restrain a bloodlusted CS1 Juugo and Suigetsu he also can block attacks with said snakes too lmao.
Blocking Kisames water is a bit different when that water can move around.

Those snakes are worthless. Kisame is massively more powerful than Suigetsu or Jugo.
Man also can't do fuck all against genjutsu which landed on Deidara someone who had a ''counter'' for it
Isn't the point of his counter to allow himself to get hit by the genjutsu? I don't see the point being made here.
Raiton just also fucks over Kisame's durability. Smack on CS1 or 2 and on top of a water user and he's gonna have a bad day.
How? Any raiton inside the water is pointless, and just shocking kisame isn't gonna do much. Suigetsu is super weak to lightning and survived sasukes rations and kept fighting.
Waterdome is countered by Manda stalling Kisame or transporting Saskue out of the dome.
Manda is more likely to assist Kisame than anything else.
Mane can then prep Kirin outside of the dome or gg him with genjutsu that tagged a much faster fighter

Kirin also isn't chakra so that shits on Daikodan.
Prep it outside the dome? And do what shock a giant water ball? At worst it blows it apart and kisame makes another one. At best it diffuses through the ball and maaaaybe zaps kisame a little bit.

All in all, kisame is the better CQC fighter, can neg every jutsu but kirin, which he doesn't even need to worry about anyway. A stronger sasuke got murdered by the same guy kisame beat handily.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Nope, it's unquantifiable. You can't calculate how much slower he is from his peak Taka Sasuke self based on that statement.

You can definitely gather he's not at 100% and in fact significantly weaker. That's good enough.

Losing the CS is just a loss of transformation, which doesn't affect his base

Sasuke has the transformation in this fight though :hm


Yep.

Peak Base Taka Sasuke>Peak Base Hebi Sasuke

Based on nothing :catshrug

Peak Taka is boosted by MS which is inherently an increase in power and it get stronger overtime but awakening it in the first place is tapping into stronger power than the three tomoe. Especially after devoloping more hate for Konoha

Based on nothing :catshrug

Not once is Sasuke implied or stated to be boosted by the Mangekyo in terms of physical stats UNTIL the Kage Summit.

We know MS and curse of hatred is already an increase so Karin commenting on it later doesn't change anything

No, we don't know that. Karin is the one that tells us that, in fact.

Nope. Read. He literally says "lateral movement"

Or maybe he has a brain and can, y'know, guess how Sasuke got there.

after seeing Sasuke run

After, not during.

If he can't react to Sasuke, he wouldn't see him run and comment on how he is moving

It doesn't take a genius or a speedster to see the end point of someone's movement after they have finished moving.

Also Sasuke is moving to fly which Deidara reacts to

Moving to fly =/ actually flying.

I can react to a supersonic jet about to take off or move on the runway, but no way am I actually dodging or reacting to one already flying directly at me. Same principle here.

Try again. I don't think you understand how speed works, either in real life or in this manga.

and manages to hit Sasuke before he can dodge on that ocassion

You left out the fact Sasuke doesn't have much room to dodge, he hasn't started flying and is surrounded by landmines.

Also, that has zero bearing on Deidara's reflexes, merely the speed of his C2 missiles.

You're basically saying a dude firing missiles from an aircraft isn't much slower than the missiles themselves, dog.

If Deidara can't react

Sasuke literally tags him with shuriken and Chidori Eiso, not even his Shunshin (it's not clear he can use that in the air).

In other words, Deidara really CAN'T react to Sasuke. The most he can hope for is staying out of Sasuke's range.

Feats and Deidara's words say you're wrong here.

Sasuke flys away before Deidara sees anything

Flight =/ running speed.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
@Billybags I'm honestly confused as to this ''MS amp'' nonsense. Sasuke didn't get amped by the MS until the FKS arc, in fact Juugo makes a point of stating Sasuke is WEAKER for losing the Sage Mark (and being weakened from fighting Itachi).

The manga makes it pretty clear that FKS Sasuke > Hebi Sasuke > Taka Sasuke physically.
 

Sleepless

Well-Known Member
Not reading that. I'll just introduce new scaling for Kisame which is just more embrassing to Hebi Sasuke.

Kisame ~ Killer Bee

Killer Bee ~ Raikage

Raikage ~ Stronger Sasuke?
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Honestly, Hebi Sasuke should hardcounter Kisame as long as he uses Genjutsu. If not, Kisame can take it.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men

I mean, you admitted you aren't going to read all that, implying you A) either can't read it or B) can't counter it.

I think you can read, so it's obviously...B?

Uh Sasuke dodged like one attack from V1 Cloak

Yep, and a weakened Sasuke to boot.

Kisame reacts and fights on par with V1 Cloak

Never happened. Samehada did that, not Kisame, and Samehada got a free boost from Bee literally rushing at it.

V2 Cloak does to Kisame what V1 does to Sasuke.

Haha no. Sasuke isn't even getting touched here, whereas Kisame couldn't do a thing physically to Bee.

Sasuke uses genjutsu then uses Chidori on Kisame. Kisame falls and almost dies. Samehada merges with it's master to save Kisame. :oldshrug

And Sasuke kicks Samehada out so it can't save Kisame. Or Sasuke cuts Kisame to bits before it can heal him.
 

Sleepless

Well-Known Member
I mean, you admitted you aren't going to read all that, implying you A) either can't read it or B) can't counter it.

I think you can read, so it's obviously...B?
I haven't conceded and there's no point going ad nauseam. I'll let people read and decide themselves cause I don't really think you countered much.
Yep, and a weakened Sasuke to boot.
Sasuke with MS amp but unquatifiable unhealthy.
Never happened. Samehada did that, not Kisame, and Samehada got a free boost from Bee literally rushing at it.
Nope, if Kisame reacts and waves his Samehada around to get Bee's chakra multiple times.
Haha no. Sasuke isn't even getting touched here, whereas Kisame couldn't do a thing physically to Bee.
He will, especially with Kisame's AOE attacks and Deidara manages to snag him multiple times.
And Sasuke kicks Samehada out so it can't save Kisame. Or Sasuke cuts Kisame to bits before it can heal him.
He doesn't have knowledge on Samehada. Sasuke doesn't slash in character he pierces with chidori, he does this like all the time.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
I haven't conceded

Yet you aren't responding to my argument, and moreover, couldn't counter it.

and there's no point going ad nauseam

I mean, obviously you can't repeat a failed argument...

I'll let people read and decide themselves

I mean, neither of us can stop them from doing either of those things...

cause I don't really think you countered much

But I think I did, and I can guarantee some will share the same opinion.

Sasuke with MS amp

No proof this happened until the FKS. Again.

Nope, if Kisame reacts and waves his Samehada around to get Bee's chakra multiple times

Kisame never waved Samehada around, actually, SAMEHADA moved around of its own volition and was juiced by Bee at that point too.

Bee-amped Samehada =/ regular Samehada or Kisame.

He will, especially with Kisame's AOE attacks

Like? Sasuke can tank or brute force through them with Manda.

and Deidara manages to snag him multiple times

Deidara has a literal minefield preventing Sasuke from dodging attacks effectively on land, thanks to Obito. Deidara didn't set it up alone.

Sasuke has limited feats or portrayal in flight, and Deidara's flight and aerial attacks are kind of the latter's specialty.

But moreover, Deidara isn't Kisame. Deidara can fly out of Sasuke's attack range, Kisame cannot.

He doesn't have knowledge on Samehada

Not necessary, Sasuke isn't dumb (usually!), the Sharingan can tell him Samehada is healing Kisame, even normal eyes can.

Sasuke doesn't slash in character he pierces with chidori, he does this like all the time.

He has a sword, dog. And yes, he does, he slashed multiple people.
 
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