Gai is overrated Part 2: ''Outperforming'' misconceptions debunked.

[WinNo1929]

But he knew them in P2 and never considered them inhuman over Lee.

He didn't call Madara inhuman despite the fact that he can neg the flicker 7G Gai admitted inferiority to.

He never called Juubito inhuman either.

People's perceptions change in correlation with their own strength

What I am amazed at as an 8 year old would be different compared to what I would be amazed at as a 30 year old for instance

He did call Madara inhuman, he referred to a glimpse of his power as "the power of a god", and he never fought Juubito either until the very end when they all dragged out his chakra so he never had an opportunity to accurately gauge his strength

He simply calls them inhuman, not beyond a human's comprehension.

He says "Those are not human movements!" meaning they are beyond what a human is capable of doing

''Inhuman'' statements don't work for concrete scaling. Black Zetsu called Kirin inhuman despite literally witnessing the Founders' fight which altered the landscape on a massive scale and seen Hagoromo.

The Founders aren't exactly human either though, Hashirama was literally referred to as a god amongst humans

Hagoromo also isn't since he's half Otsutsuki, so I don't see why these examples are credible

I'd also point out that you use A3's statement of being inhumane by KCM Naruto to scale him in a certain league though, and that is definitely valid given all the people Naruto has encountered at that point.

When someone is considered not human, they are a league above other humans. For A3 it's his monstrous durability and raw strength, and for 7G Gai it's his speed and Taijutsu moves. They eclipse the standard to which other humans have set previously

The ''inhuman'' hype is unquantifiable and can't be used to scale Gai above anyone Gaara saw in his life. Especially with the multitude of speed inferiorities Gai has, such as needing multiple individuals against Obito, Kisame reacting to Hirudora, and V2 A4 having better speed hype than him.

Gai's punching speed can be inhuman, not his actual movement speed which is what Gaara was commenting on, him throwing attacks at Juudara. So Ay can still be faster than him in movement speed, but not comparable in combat speed

Obito is also relative to Madara in terms of power, who Gaara also considered to be godlike - and Gai also never used the Seventh Gate against Obito

As for Kisame, he mentally reacted to Hirudora and Kisame himself was amped on Bee's chakra so it's not even normal Kisame

Kisame was shocked at KCM1 Naruto's speed, not 7G Gai's.

That doesn't discredit Gaara's statement though, different people can be shocked at different things

Kisame can be shocked at how fast Naruto was in comparison to the little brat he had met before, while Gaara is commenting on Gai's speed in comparison to other human's he knows such as Ay, Minato, Ohnoki etc.

Naruto used his speed to redirect the bombs though. Gai said ''so fast'', not ''so strong.''

Strength is tied into speed though. The faster you are, the more powerful your attack would be

"with proper speed training, an athlete can learn to generate strength and power efficiently which in turn, increases an athlete's overall speed." - Speed vs Strength by teamspeedco

 

[MHA massive fan]

This a continuation to @UchihaX28's in which he masterfully debunked the wrongful belief of Base Gai's scaling to Obito. I'll take a step further and debunk other fallacious arguments and comparisons.

To begin with, the argument in cause used to elevate Guy to a standing he doesn't belong to is ''he outperformed character X against character Y''. Taking a short-lived interaction at face value can give an impression of superiority, but also requires forgoing important context about said interaction.

. Naruto did not do that and rushed him carelessly despite hearing Gai's warning. Obito was likely briefly forced on the defensive against Base Gai because he wasn't familiar with his nunchuck-wielding style, not purely because Base Gai's physicals are comparable to his.

Unorthodox styles can be hard to read, and this could have been the case with Gai's since . When Obito adapted to it, , prompting .

Even ignoring the above context about it, the Base Gai-Obito interaction that @UchihaX28 covered used to scale Gai to or even above KCM Naruto in physicals and sometimes even in terms of overall standing, there is another fundamental error in this logic that's ignored time and again by its proponents, and that is the fact that in this manga, a character can, under specific circumstances, do better against an opponent than a stronger character, and examples exist to illustrate this concept.

For instance, Base Bee did much better than V2 A4 against Minato. Unlike A4, who gets , almost , and , Bee could counter Minato's blindside on his own and even .

Based on their exchanges with the same character, can we say Base Bee is superior or equal to V2 A4 in either physicals or overall standing? I mean, and contested Minato far better than he did. This situation is nigh-identical to the one in which Base Gai ''outperformed'' KCM Naruto. However, the answer to the question above is no.

Base Bee has a with already and is . is outmaneuvered by an Sasuke in and. In contrast, a Sasuke's perception and .

Using this ridiculous thought process Sasuke outperformed Minato too. But it's irrelevant because he was blitzed in a stronger iteration by Minato's inferior.

Saving an individual from someone or something doesn't mean you are better either.

• Dodai Naruto from A3 .

• Suigetsu and Juugo save Sasuke from .

• Base Bee saves from .

• , . Are they also better than KCM Naruto, or is Torune vastly superior to Fu?

• BM Bee from.

I'm sure there are many other instances in which some characters protect themselves, but these are the first that come to mind.

In short, you can be much faster, stronger, and more reflexive than character X, but the latter can still outperform, save you, or both. Such is the case with Guy and Naruto. Something that's ignored 99% of the time because it debunks the Base Guy ~ KCM Naruto scaling is the fight against Obito's Jins.

to and a . Since 6G Gai was pushed back simultaneously with Kakashi, , this reinforces the accurate notion of Base Gai being far below Obito in physicals.

Even more importantly, Naruto was on in that fight. Based on the above events, a fatigued KCM Naruto is already comparable to 6G Guy. Kisame, who fought base Gai, 6G Gai, and 7G Gai, called a fresh and had .

Conclusion? KCM Naruto is superior to any pre-7G Gai in physicals and at least faster than 7G Gai . .

Another interaction commonly argued to paint Gai above people leagues above him is his short scuffle with Juudara, where he accomplished nothing save for almost , being , and need.

The premise behind this argument is Gai ''outperforms'' and against Madara because , and thus he is much faster or overall stronger than them. However, Madara wasn't even serious with him, considering that not long after, he was to , even .

Any reasonable person on this planet knows the 8th Gate is vastly superior to the 7th Gate, and for Madara to physically intercept 8th Gated attacks, he must also be vastly superior to the 7th Gate. People may bring the air cannons ''blitzing'' Juudara, but they never did that. because of their pressure. Their force was the problem, not the speed. Lastly, . If he didn't take 8th Gate Gai seriously, one can imagine how he thought of 7G Gai.

It's also arguable Madara used his full speed on Minato. He had a reason to do so since just before Minato engaged him, , and . It's undeniable that cutting Minato's arm off immediately and was ideal compared to jumping back as he did with Gai while his second eye was about to make its way into a dimension Madara had no access. In short, against Minato, Madara was forced to take action immediately.

Since we don't know and cannot quantify the level of speed Madara used on Guy, this interaction is useless for scaling purposes and only contradicted by several others:

• . After , Kakashi thought Minato returned from the grave to save them. This admission of inferiority doesn't pair well with the 7G Gai > SM Minato belief.

• BM Naruto, the same person Gai admitted inferiority to, could not do anything to Edo Madara the that altered the 5 bombs. This heavily contradicts the idea that 7G Gai is anywhere near Juudara and more so suggests he is likely far below the living Madara who overwhelmed SM Naruto.

• , one of them being Kakashi, who to hope someone will tag Obito, . Naturally, Gai should have rushed Obito down with his faster-than-SM-Minato speeds. But that never was the case.

• did against than did before Kushina interfered and. Those interactions suggest SM Naruto is much stronger than Gai, . See? It's pretty easy to hit the Gai ''outperforms'' arguments with a taste of their own medicine and turn the tables. .

It's also worth mentioning that Juudara didn't even attack Gai during their short exchange. Some may say he tried to cut his arm off when he swung his staff, but there's 0 evidence to support this claim. It's also arguable that Madara extended his rod forward to counter Hirudora, not to attack Gai.

In conclusion, momentarily saving or outperforming someone isn't a reliable metric to scale a character. It simply means you can be useful for short-lived period before the enemy adjust his fighting style accordingly to prevent you from doing the same thing again, and will handily overwhelm you after that, as seen by how Obito caught Gai's nunchuks and was about to warp him clean. The fact that Gai's treated as an exception but not the characters mentioned above denotes hypocrisy and cements his status as an overrated character.

Nice thread
Watch the do their work

 

[MHA massive fan]

This a continuation to @UchihaX28's in which he masterfully debunked the wrongful belief of Base Gai's scaling to Obito. I'll take a step further and debunk other fallacious arguments and comparisons.

To begin with, the argument in cause used to elevate Guy to a standing he doesn't belong to is ''he outperformed character X against character Y''. Taking a short-lived interaction at face value can give an impression of superiority, but also requires forgoing important context about said interaction.

. Naruto did not do that and rushed him carelessly despite hearing Gai's warning. Obito was likely briefly forced on the defensive against Base Gai because he wasn't familiar with his nunchuck-wielding style, not purely because Base Gai's physicals are comparable to his.

Unorthodox styles can be hard to read, and this could have been the case with Gai's since . When Obito adapted to it, , prompting .

Even ignoring the above context about it, the Base Gai-Obito interaction that @UchihaX28 covered used to scale Gai to or even above KCM Naruto in physicals and sometimes even in terms of overall standing, there is another fundamental error in this logic that's ignored time and again by its proponents, and that is the fact that in this manga, a character can, under specific circumstances, do better against an opponent than a stronger character, and examples exist to illustrate this concept.

For instance, Base Bee did much better than V2 A4 against Minato. Unlike A4, who gets , almost , and , Bee could counter Minato's blindside on his own and even .

Based on their exchanges with the same character, can we say Base Bee is superior or equal to V2 A4 in either physicals or overall standing? I mean, and contested Minato far better than he did. This situation is nigh-identical to the one in which Base Gai ''outperformed'' KCM Naruto. However, the answer to the question above is no.

Base Bee has a with already and is . is outmaneuvered by an Sasuke in and. In contrast, a Sasuke's perception and .

Using this ridiculous thought process Sasuke outperformed Minato too. But it's irrelevant because he was blitzed in a stronger iteration by Minato's inferior.

Saving an individual from someone or something doesn't mean you are better either.

• Dodai Naruto from A3 .

• Suigetsu and Juugo save Sasuke from .

• Base Bee saves from .

• , . Are they also better than KCM Naruto, or is Torune vastly superior to Fu?

• BM Bee from.

I'm sure there are many other instances in which some characters protect themselves, but these are the first that come to mind.

In short, you can be much faster, stronger, and more reflexive than character X, but the latter can still outperform, save you, or both. Such is the case with Guy and Naruto. Something that's ignored 99% of the time because it debunks the Base Guy ~ KCM Naruto scaling is the fight against Obito's Jins.

to and a . Since 6G Gai was pushed back simultaneously with Kakashi, , this reinforces the accurate notion of Base Gai being far below Obito in physicals.

Even more importantly, Naruto was on in that fight. Based on the above events, a fatigued KCM Naruto is already comparable to 6G Guy. Kisame, who fought base Gai, 6G Gai, and 7G Gai, called a fresh and had .

Conclusion? KCM Naruto is superior to any pre-7G Gai in physicals and at least faster than 7G Gai . .

Another interaction commonly argued to paint Gai above people leagues above him is his short scuffle with Juudara, where he accomplished nothing save for almost , being , and need.

The premise behind this argument is Gai ''outperforms'' and against Madara because , and thus he is much faster or overall stronger than them. However, Madara wasn't even serious with him, considering that not long after, he was to , even .

Any reasonable person on this planet knows the 8th Gate is vastly superior to the 7th Gate, and for Madara to physically intercept 8th Gated attacks, he must also be vastly superior to the 7th Gate. People may bring the air cannons ''blitzing'' Juudara, but they never did that. because of their pressure. Their force was the problem, not the speed. Lastly, . If he didn't take 8th Gate Gai seriously, one can imagine how he thought of 7G Gai.

It's also arguable Madara used his full speed on Minato. He had a reason to do so since just before Minato engaged him, , and . It's undeniable that cutting Minato's arm off immediately and was ideal compared to jumping back as he did with Gai while his second eye was about to make its way into a dimension Madara had no access. In short, against Minato, Madara was forced to take action immediately.

Since we don't know and cannot quantify the level of speed Madara used on Guy, this interaction is useless for scaling purposes and only contradicted by several others:

• . After , Kakashi thought Minato returned from the grave to save them. This admission of inferiority doesn't pair well with the 7G Gai > SM Minato belief.

• BM Naruto, the same person Gai admitted inferiority to, could not do anything to Edo Madara the that altered the 5 bombs. This heavily contradicts the idea that 7G Gai is anywhere near Juudara and more so suggests he is likely far below the living Madara who overwhelmed SM Naruto.

• , one of them being Kakashi, who to hope someone will tag Obito, . Naturally, Gai should have rushed Obito down with his faster-than-SM-Minato speeds. But that never was the case.

• did against than did before Kushina interfered and. Those interactions suggest SM Naruto is much stronger than Gai, . See? It's pretty easy to hit the Gai ''outperforms'' arguments with a taste of their own medicine and turn the tables. .

It's also worth mentioning that Juudara didn't even attack Gai during their short exchange. Some may say he tried to cut his arm off when he swung his staff, but there's 0 evidence to support this claim. It's also arguable that Madara extended his rod forward to counter Hirudora, not to attack Gai.

In conclusion, momentarily saving or outperforming someone isn't a reliable metric to scale a character. It simply means you can be useful for short-lived period before the enemy adjust his fighting style accordingly to prevent you from doing the same thing again, and will handily overwhelm you after that, as seen by how Obito caught Gai's nunchuks and was about to warp him clean. The fact that Gai's treated as an exception but not the characters mentioned above denotes hypocrisy and cements his status as an overrated character.

You didn’t mention Gai never being obito target so why spend energy on him
It’s the equivalent of saying Kakashi outperformed naruto in cqc because he didn’t need saving and actually saved naruto

When obito never even bothered to simply go for kakashi ( plot stupidity mind you )

 

[Monarch]

People's perceptions change in correlation with their own strength

What I am amazed at as an 8 year old would be different compared to what I would be amazed at as a 30 year old for instance

Gaara didn't show any signs of changing his opinion about Lee until seeing Gai if we go off showings.

He did call Madara inhuman, he referred to a glimpse of his power as "the power of a god",

Power of a god isn't equivalent to inhuman. Pain was called a god and Naruto never considered him inhuman.

and he never fought Juubito either until the very end when they all dragged out his chakra so he never had an opportunity to accurately gauge his strength

Gaara saw a Perfect Susano'o + BSM fusion struggling with almost the entire alliance to pull the Bijuus out of him. That clearly gives him a good gauge of Juubito's strength which is more than enough to consider him stronger than Madara.

I'm pretty sure he also saw the massive hole Juubito dugged in the ground and felt the immense shock it generated.

And despite that, Gaara called Madara a god, not Juubito.

He says "Those are not human movements!" meaning they are beyond what a human is capable of doing

''Comprehension'' is different though. When you bring that word you arw saying Gai's movements are beyond a human's ability to mentally grasp.

The Founders aren't exactly human either though, Hashirama was literally referred to as a god amongst humans

But Black Zetsu still didn't call them inhuman. I'm also sure he didn't call them gods either.

I'd also point out that you use A3's statement of being inhumane by KCM Naruto to scale him in a certain league though,

But I never argued A3 was the strongest and most durable opponent he ever faced just because he called him inhuman. When I use that hype I'm merely pointing out Naruto's amazement. Nothing more, nothing less.

When someone is considered not human, they are a league above other humans. For A3 it's his monstrous durability and raw strength, and for 7G Gai it's his speed and Taijutsu moves. They eclipse the standard to which other humans have set previously

Not really. Black Zetsu never considered the Founders inhuman, but considered Kirin inhuman.

Gai's punching speed can be inhuman, not his actual movement speed which is what Gaara was commenting on, him throwing attacks at Juudara. So Ay can still be faster than him in movement speed, but not comparable in combat speed

But if only his punching speed is ''inhuman'', how is he going to counter Raikage blitzing flickers and TBB altering body flickers?

Why couldn't he counter the 5 bombs with his inhuman punching speed?

Obito is also relative to Madara in terms of power,

Madara is portrayed to be stronger than Obito. He one-shotted BM Naruto, Gai, and BM Bee at the same time just by fucking around with a Wooden Dragon. If the dude unleashed his PS there he would have dropped them like flies.

Obito was very strong, but fighting BM Naruto, Kakashi and Gai was his limit. In comparison, Madara had to step on his toes to not crush them like ants.

I know there's a statement saying ''same overwhelming strength'' which is most likely a flopped translation but if you're not convinced that statement is contradicted you have Madara being confident in taking down Juubito with Hashirama's Sage Mode, which is definitely below the Juubi as an amp.

Besides, if you think Obito is inhuman, then so is Minato, and by extension, BM Naruto.

and Gai also never used the Seventh Gate against Obito

Because it would have achieved nothing save for leaving him with ruptured muscle fibers and BM Naruto, whom Gai cucked to, was already struggling against Obito.

If 7G Gai has >>> SM Minato speeds it makes no sense for him let Kakashi kill himself with MS affliction and risk Naruto ending up warped not once, but twice.

As for Kisame, he mentally reacted to Hirudora and Kisame himself was amped on Bee's chakra so it's not even normal Kisame

He mentally reacted for a quite a long time as the bro was having a full monologue in his head about how it was interacting with Daikodan.

Also, Kisame reacted after firing his Daikodan, meaning a good portion of Bee's chakra was already spent.

Mentioning a portion of Bee's chakra as the reason for Kisame's reaction to Hirudora only serves to bury Gai's standing even deeper since Gyuki is vastly inferior to Kurama and Minato himself. V2 A4 who uses full Gyuki levels of chakra to amplify his speed and nerve transmissions could not even follow KCM 1 Naruto's flicker.

If Kisame, who has 0 speed hype (unlike A4), can react to Hirudora without Samehada, a 50% nerf, and just a handful of Bee's chakra whilst A4 can't react to KCM Naruto's flicker with Bijuu levels of chakra pumped into a speed amplifying cloak, then Gai would look much slower by comparison.

That doesn't discredit Gaara's statement though, different people can be shocked at different things

But it discredits the idea that ''inhuman'' means better than anyone else a person has ever seen before. It can work in some cases, but not in all of them.

Kisame can be shocked at how fast Naruto was in comparison to the little brat he had met before,

Not really. He called his speed unbelievable. This means he was amazed at the idea of such speed even existing. And that's KCM Naruto's first speed over which he had no control over.

while Gaara is commenting on Gai's speed in comparison to other human's he knows such as Ay, Minato, Ohnoki etc.

He never mentioned them in his comparison and I'm not even sure if he witnessed Minato's speed in the first place since Madara sliced his arm off before he swung his Rasengan.

Either way, if we are to believe Gaara considered 7G Gai the fastest, as in faster than SM Minato, we'd also be contradicting Gai's statement of inferiority to BM Naruto, whom Minato is likened to.

That's the reason I doubt Gaara considered him the fastest, aside from its vagueness.

Strength is tied into speed though. The faster you are, the more powerful your attack would be

No doubt about that. Issue is that Gai needed the 8th Gate to generate a level of speed with enough momentum to redirect the 5 bombs.

 

[WinNo1929]

Gaara didn't show any signs of changing his opinion about Lee until seeing Gai if we go off showings.

At the same time, we didn't see anything in the contrary

It can be chalked up to Gaara having much less panel time, but my point still stands

He has seen people who have better hype than Lee and hyped them beyond that

Power of a god isn't equivalent to inhuman. Pain was called a god and Naruto never considered him inhuman.

That's still beyond human, which is what inhuman means.

Humans are not Gods, so if a human is called a God then they greatly exceed the standards set by humans previously, placing them on an entirely different level

Gaara saw a Perfect Susano'o + BSM fusion struggling with almost the entire alliance to pull the Bijuus out of him. That clearly gives him a good gauge of Juubito's strength which is more than enough to consider him stronger than Madara.

I'm pretty sure he also saw the massive hole Juubito dugged in the ground and felt the immense shock it generated.

And despite that, Gaara called Madara a god, not Juubito.

Again though, why does he need to say anything in that instance?

Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence

We already have statements from higher sources than Gaara (Kishimoto) directly stating Juubito is stronger than Madara, which Madara even confirms himself

It doesn't invalidate that Gaara considered him to be in possession of godlike powers

''Comprehension'' is different though. When you bring that word you arw saying Gai's movements are beyond a human's ability to mentally grasp.

Which in Gaara's eyes is true

Gaara has seen humans move, like Ay. He has seen Lightened Ay, Minato etc. Yet despite all of this, he directly states Gai's movements are beyond human standards, meaning they would exceed that of Ay and Minato in his eyes

But Black Zetsu still didn't call them inhuman. I'm also sure he didn't call them gods either.

Black Zetsu doesn't need to call them inhuman or godlike, when more people already have including Kishimoto

But I never argued A3 was the strongest and most durable opponent he ever faced just because he called him inhuman. When I use that hype I'm merely pointing out Naruto's amazement. Nothing more, nothing less.

That hype still has to stand for something though

It would mean he is more durable and physically powerful than everyone Naruto has met previously, given he quite literally asked if the guy is even HUMAN - and everyone he has fought that is a Shinobi is a human and never prompted that kind of reaction

Meaning that Naruto at that point in the story considered A3's durability beyond that of any human he had encountered beforehand

Not really. Black Zetsu never considered the Founders inhuman, but considered Kirin inhuman.

Black Zetsu is not the be all end all source, he's actually made incorrect statements before such as his statement on Itachi's Genjutsu which was corrected by greater sources like Kishimoto.

It's also possible he was simply referring to the current time period in which Kirin was used, which would exclude people like Hashirama, Madara, Kaguya etc.

It still doesn't take away that Hashirama was named by the people (more than 1 person) a God in comparison to other Shinobi, and people in the modern day didn't even believe he was that strong because they couldn't comprehend a human possessing that much power

But if only his punching speed is ''inhuman'', how is he going to counter Raikage blitzing flickers and TBB altering body flickers?

By reacting to them and dodging them, or intercepting it with his punches and kicks

Why couldn't he counter the 5 bombs with his inhuman punching speed?

Probably because he doesn't have the durability to do that, and he wouldn't even be able to stop the Bijuu anyway even in the seventh gate

Madara is portrayed to be stronger than Obito. He one-shotted BM Naruto, Gai, and BM Bee at the same time just by fucking around with a Wooden Dragon. If the dude unleashed his PS there he would have dropped them like flies.

Obito was very strong, but fighting BM Naruto, Kakashi and Gai was his limit. In comparison, Madara had to step on his toes to not crush them like ants.

I know there's a statement saying ''same overwhelming strength'' which is most likely a flopped translation but if you're not convinced that statement is contradicted you have Madara being confident in taking down Juubito with Hashirama's Sage Mode, which is definitely below the Juubi as an amp.

I mean i don't disagree Madara is stronger than Obito, but there's a few things here that aren;t 100 percent accurate

Madara fought the fatigued versions of them that were tired from fighting Obito, and even he acknowledged how strong they were. Obito was also hard countered moreso than Madara was because Kakashi has the sole weapon which could counter Obito and expose ihm.

Madara also never stated he alone would defeat Juubito with Sage Mode, it's implied he could simply weaken him enough and have Zetsu help him rip out the Bijuu and revive him - but Madara's statements should be taken with a grain of salt considering his predictions and gauging of his strength in comparison to elite shinobi are commonly incorrect, like the 3 times he stated he could defeat Hashirama and failed, him taking down 6P Naruto and Sasuke initially etc.

But my point wasn't that Obito is stronger than Madara, just that they are simply relative in strength

Besides, if you think Obito is inhuman, then so is Minato, and by extension, BM Naruto.

Obito is stronger than Minato and definitely stronger than BM Naruto

All Minato is compared to BM Naruto with is travel speed, not power - which is exactly what Naruto needed to take down Obito, speed.

"You need a certain set of skills to take down that man", and Minato was only able to do this with his teleportation speed

Because it would have achieved nothing save for leaving him with ruptured muscle fibers and BM Naruto, whom Gai cucked to, was already struggling against Obito.

I agree with this, the Edo Jins would also just regen

If 7G Gai has >>> SM Minato speeds it makes no sense for him let Kakashi kill himself with MS affliction and risk Naruto ending up warped not once, but twice.

But 7G as you just said was inefficient against Obito, who could just hard counter him anyway with Bijuu and phasing.

And once Gai is out of seventh gate he collapses like a sack of potatoes.

He mentally reacted for a quite a long time as the bro was having a full monologue in his head about how it was interacting with Daikodan.

That was when the Jutsu were clashing together, not the actual speed of Hirudora.

And i agree, he mentally reacted which is far easier to do than physically react

Also, Kisame reacted after firing his Daikodan, meaning a good portion of Bee's chakra was already spent.

Do you have a scan or way to interpret Daikodan equalling a good portion of Bee's chakra?

Mentioning a portion of Bee's chakra as the reason for Kisame's reaction to Hirudora only serves bury Gai's standing even deeper since Gyuki is vastly inferior to Kurama and Minato himself. V2 A4 who uses full Gyuki levels of chakra to amplify his speed and nerve transmissions could not even follow KCM 1 Naruto's flicker.

It's not the main reason I used, it's just a supporting statement. Kisame had his chakra + Bee's.

Gyuki doesn't have normal Bijuu levels either. It's stated by Kurama he is stronger than the average Bijuu, and by Kisame himself (a Bijuu expert) that the potency and amount of Bee's chakra differs exponentially in comparison to the other Bijuu

"You really are deserving of being one less than the nine tails", implying it's on a greater level than other Bijuu.

If Kisame, who has 0 speed hype (unlike A4), can react to Hirudora without Samehada

Samehada does nothing to help him against Gai

, a 50% nerf,

50 percent?

and just a handful of Bee's chakra

A handful?

Bee collapsed after having his chakra taken, it was quite a considerable amount

whilst A4 can't react to KCM Naruto's flicker with Bijuu levels of chakra pumped into a speed amplifying cloak, then Gai would look much slower by comparison.

There's nothing that says A4 didn't react though - Naruto simply just dodged it mirroring his father, who Ay could also mentally react to twice

He just physically couldn't outspeed him

But it discredits the idea that ''inhuman'' means better than anyone else a person has ever seen before. It can work in some cases, but not in all of them.

Sure, but there can simply be a standard placed for these things

Gaara can simply not be as shocked by Juubito's power anymore, and we already have other statements that would portray Juubito above a god like Madara, such as from his rival who conceded inferiority to unstable Juubito and Kishi as well

Not really. He called his speed unbelievable. This means he was amazed at the idea of such speed even existing. And that's KCM Naruto's first speed over which he had no control over.

Amazed at such speed existing, or amazed that Naruto could move that fast

And while he doesn't have control over his landing and lacks the finesse, there's no indication he moved slower than he normally could there - that Shunshin was compared directly to Minato's teleportation, he just didn't have Minato's skill as he got stuck in the wall like an idiot

He never mentioned them in his comparison and I'm not even sure if he witnessed Minato's speed in the first place since Madara sliced his arm off before he swung his Rasengan.

Minato still partially swung the Rasengan though, and was able to intercept and react to 8G Gai movement speed



Take a look at Minato's arm, it moved a decent distance before it was sliced off

Either way, if we are to believe Gaara considered 7G Gai the fastest, as in faster than SM Minato, we'd also be contradicting Gai's statement of inferiority to BM Naruto, whom Minato is likened to.

In pure travel speed, which is different to combat speed

That's the differentiation i'm siding with

That's the reason I doubt Gaara considered him the fastest, aside from its vagueness.

What would you personally make of it?

More just baseless hype that doesn't scale anywhere? Would you compare it at least to V2 Ay?

Granted, you could also say that the movement could be in his ability to actually throw punches and kicks, with fluidity and agility which can be beyond that of a human

That makes sense too, given Gai's whole thing is about giving people the hands.

No doubt about that. Issue is that Gai needed the 8th Gate to generate a level of speed with enough momentum to redirect the 5 bombs.

Fair

 

[Crimson Flam3s]

That doesn't make them relative

Two attacks destroying something don't mean they have the same or similar level of force, just that they have the minimum force required to destroy said object

I do agree personally Base Gai and his weirdly overpowered nunchucks are stronger than KCM1 physically though

Oh I agree with the reasoning here.

Case in point, when he tried to hype up KCM Naruto's attack on a decrepit and weakened armless Kisame. I pointed out that base Gai replicated the power of his attack and better just pages later, thus the feat not being that impressive given Kisame's state and base Gai replicating it.

As for the attack potency, I agree that it could be stronger but as far as KCM Naruto showings go, but that's the best feat mini bijuudama has iirc.

Anyone could argue if it was much stronger then it would turned that boulder into dust and not rubble like the nunchucks did.

 

[MHA massive fan]

If we agree that 7G Gai lacks either the speed or power or durability to slap 5 Bd meanwhile naurto has all the above
Then please why is this still being debated ?

A simple question juubi Madara only allowed to swing his staff or 5BD which is more lethal ?

I think Gai already answered this question by opting to Jill himself using 8G Vs facing 5BD in 7G

The above alone disproves firmly Gai level in regards to KCm 2 or anyone compared to kcm2 naruto

 

[Crimson Flam3s]

If we agree that 7G Gai lacks either the speed or power or durability to slap 5 Bd meanwhile naurto has all the above
Then please why is this still being debated ?

A simple question juubi Madara only allowed to swing his staff or 5BD which is more lethal ?

I think Gai already answered this question by opting to Jill himself using 8G Vs facing 5BD in 7G

The above alone disproves firmly Gai level in regards to KCm 2 or anyone compared to kcm2 naruto

This thread is about KCM1, not KCM2

 

[MHA massive fan]

This thread is about KCM1, not KCM2

KCm 1 and 2 had the same speed bench mark
Touché though
Touché !!

 

[Magon]

because of their pressure. Their force was the problem, not the speed. Lastly,

Youre trying to correct stuff but youre going against Madara own words at the same time Lmao.
He could move because the first step was blocked and the air canon went through the shield while madara was behind it which means that he was unnafected bu the pressure and could no react to the second step in time even though he partially perceive Gai moving.

He was unable to react against Gai when he got inside the tso dome

Madara wasn't even serious with him, considering that not long after, he was to , even .

The fact is that he did outperfomed minato and accomplished more than he did with the 7g and theres no reason to assume that Madara would spare Gai when he went 7g btw he did not bc he tried to kill gai after that.
.

as ideal compared to jumping back as he did with Gai while his second eye was about to make its way into a dimension Madara had no access. In short, against Minato, Madara was forced to take action immediately.

Madara wanted to kill Gai and he tried once Gai stopped the sequence to use the Hirudora.

Ive never seen ppl scaling 7g Gai relative to Juubidara bc he aint but the fact is that his ATTACK SPEED scales above SM Minato.

It's also worth mentioning that Juudara didn't even attack Gai during their short exchange. Some may say he tried to cut his arm off when he swung his staff, but there's 0 evidence to support this claim

What u mean? Lmao. He did not attack Gai bc his taijutsu is better and his movements are extremely great and once Madara found the opportunity to attack he did and the only thing that saved gai life there was the hirudora shock wave that impeded the staff to touch Gais body.





I agree that base Gai does not scale to KCM1but the dishonest way that u tried to analyse Gai performace against Juudiara is lame.

 

[SSMG]

This is my take as well

Gai's taijutsu and physical power even in base is notably more impressive than KCM Naruto's, but Taijutsu is only one aspect of a fight

Someone like Gai isn't going to be capable of dealing with massive FRS spam or even something like this

Since Base Guy is faster and has better reflexes than Kcm Naruto, he'd either dodge it..

Or pressure Naruto with a blitz before Naruto can even create one.

 

[WinNo1929]

Since Base Guy is faster and has better reflexes than Kcm Naruto, he'd either dodge it..

Or pressure Naruto with a blitz before Naruto can even create one.

The problem is the blast radius, and in movement speed he hasn't shown a huge gap over this Naruto

Both were able to keep pace with Obito's movement speed, but unlike Gai Naruto has a really fast body flicker which can cover more distance

While I agree Gai can react to his attacks, it's about whether he could escape the massive blast radius

 

[SSMG]

The problem is the blast radius, and in movement speed he hasn't shown a huge gap over this Naruto

Both were able to keep pace with Obito's movement speed, but unlike Gai Naruto has a really fast body flicker which can cover more distance

While I agree Gai can react to his attacks, it's about whether he could escape the massive blast radius

But Guy has shown a massive movement speed difference than KCM Naruto.

Kcm Naruto rushed at Obito, Guy had enough time to pull out his nunchuck while Naruto was mid charge.

Then he intercepted Obito to save that same Naruto from a further starting distance than Naruto, in much less time, as he left well after Naruto did.

I'm not sure on the exact difference but a rough eyeball would have me guess it's atleast a 2x speed difference.

 

[WinNo1929]

But Guy has shown a massive movement speed difference than KCM Naruto.

Kcm Naruto rushed at Obito, Guy had enough time to pull out his nunchuck while Naruto was mid charge.

Then he intercepted Obito to save that same Naruto from a further starting distance than Naruto, in much less time, as he left well after Naruto did.

I'm not sure on the exact difference but a rough eyeball would have me guess it's atleast a 2x speed difference.

That's not movement speed, that's combat speed - which I agree with you is faster than Naruto's

But in terms of movement speed, simply running - Gai and Obito run at each other about the same speed, and Obito and Naruto move at the same speed from point A to point B.

But since Naruto can "teleport" with his shunshin, he can create distance faster than his normal movement speed which Gai matches, and he would need to do this otherwise he'd get clobbered in CQC

 

[SSMG]

That's not movement speed, that's combat speed

No it most certainly is movement speed as it's based on both characters covering a distance over time.

 

[Crimson Flam3s]

KCm 1 and 2 had the same speed bench mark
Touché though
Touché !!

So you are saying Gai is = BM/KCM2 Naruto since he already matched or exceeded his feats?

Looks like we got a new Gai wanker

 

[SSMG]

 

[Aegon Targaryen]

Obito and KCM Naruto both seemed to be using Shunshin.

 

[MHA massive fan]

So you are saying Gai is = BM/KCM2 Naruto since he already matched or exceeded his feats?

Looks like we got a new Gai wanker

Yes exactly I am saying base Gai can slap away 5BD which is why he said he needed to kill himself by going 8G
He got tired of life

 

[Monarch]

At the same time, we didn't see anything in the contrary

I'm merely stating what happens if we go off his Lee statement and later showings.

But you're making a positive claim that he changed his mind.

If you make a positive claim you can't just say there's nothing contradicting it therefore it's true. Evidence of him changing his mind has to be shown.

He has seen people who have better hype than Lee and hyped them beyond that

But this also applies for the Gai point.

He also saw people with better speed hype than Gai. Juubito, A4, KCM Naruto, and BSM Naruto.

But he only called Gai inhuman.

That's still beyond human, which is what inhuman means.

But it's not beyond comprehension. Because Kisame comprehended his striking speed.

Humans are not Gods, so if a human is called a God then they greatly exceed the standards set by humans previously, placing them on an entirely different level

Not really. A much stronger Naruto than his PA self was shocked at A3, but against Pain, who also has god reputation, he had the audacity to run his mouth.

Again though, why does he need to say anything in that instance?

Because that's the basis for your stance.

If you are saying that Gaara doesn't have to say anything about Juubito or BSM Naruto, such as calling them inhuman, because they already have "hype". Then I can use the same reasoning for Gai.

Gaara doesn't have to call A4, KCM 1-2, and BSM Naruto inhuman or the fastest for them to scale above Gai because they already have better hype and feats than Gai does.

Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence

This doesn't work for a positive claim.

We already have statements from higher sources than Gaara (Kishimoto) directly stating Juubito is stronger than Madara,

And we have statements and feats putting A4 and KCM Naruto above Gai in speed.

Besides, I can use your argument from another angle. Since we have statements and hype for A4, Naruto and Minato saying they are faster than Gai as much as statements confirming Juubito's position over Madara's, then Gaara's statements can't be used to scale people he calls godlike or inhuman above everyone else.

It simply means he considers them strong or very fast.

which Madara even confirms himself

But this works against your point and supports my own. Since Gai also confirms his inferiority himself.

Madara admitting inferiority to Juubito is no different than Gai admitting inferiority to BM Naruto.

Yet, Gaara called the inferior ones "goodlike" and "inhuman".

It doesn't invalidate that Gaara considered him to be in possession of godlike powers

But that's based on pre-existing hype. And the same would apply to Minato, A4 and Naruto.

Gaara has seen humans move, like Ay. He has seen Lightened Ay, Minato etc. Yet despite all of this, he directly states Gai's movements are beyond human standards, meaning they would exceed that of Ay and Minato in his eyes

It wouldn't, for the same reason he didn't call Juubito godlike, who is stronger than Madara, whom he called godlike.

Or, for the same reason he didn't call BSM Naruto inhuman.

Black Zetsu doesn't need to call them inhuman or godlike,

He does for this comparison to work.

I can too argue Gaara doesn't have to call them inhuman to be superior, because they already have speed hype exceeding Gai's.

when more people already have including Kishimoto

But again, this also applies A4, Naruto and Minato.

That hype still has to stand for something though

But so does A4's, Minato's, and Naruto's.

It would mean he is more durable and physically powerful than everyone Naruto has met previously, given he quite literally asked if the guy is even HUMAN - and everyone he has fought that is a Shinobi is a human and never prompted that kind of reaction

Meaning that Naruto at that point in the story considered A3's durability beyond that of any human he had encountered beforehand

Sure, and this applies to Naruto's observation. It doesn't mean it'll apply to everyone else making inhuman comments.

Black Zetsu is not the be all end all source,

He is the most reliable source, having existed for millennia and witnessed all important events.

he's actually made incorrect statements before such as his statement on Itachi's Genjutsu

Where was he wrong about Itachi's Genjutsu?

Also, much like you said he was referring to Kirin in present time, I can say the same about Itachi's Genjutsu being the strongest in the present time.

It's also possible he was simply referring to the current time period in which Kirin was used, which would exclude people like Hashirama, Madara, Kaguya etc.

But Kurama, Pain, and the other Bijuus were still around at that time.

Kurama participated at VotE.

It still doesn't take away that Hashirama was named by the people (more than 1 person) a God in comparison to other Shinobi, and people in the modern day didn't even believe he was that strong because they couldn't comprehend a human possessing that much power

Zetsu never called them gods, nor inhuman.

And I'll repeat once again, the author gave A4, Naruto and Minato better speed hype than Gai.

So using this reasoning, Gaara doesn't have to call them inhuman to be faster than Gai.

By reacting to them and dodging them, or intercepting it with his punches and kicks

He doesn't have the feats for that.

But even giving Gai the benefit of the doubt of having >>> SM Minato striking speed how does that prove he can react to those flickers?

KCM 1-2 flickers could be so much faster than SM Minato's combat/striking speed that he'd get physically blitzed.

He may lack the mental reactions altogether.

Probably because he doesn't have the durability to do that, and he wouldn't even be able to stop the Bijuu anyway even in the seventh gate

Why doesn't he have the durability? Again, his statement emphasized speed, not durability.

I mean i don't disagree Madara is stronger than Obito, but there's a few things here that aren;t 100 percent accurate

Madara fought the fatigued versions of them that were tired from fighting Obito,

Is there any evidence BM Bee and BM Naruto were fatigued? Gai had no reason to be fatigued since he mostly faced Obito in base.

and even he acknowledged how strong they were.

He also acknowledged the Gokage, who were ants next to him.

Obito was also hard countered moreso than Madara was because Kakashi has the sole weapon which could counter Obito and expose ihm.

He couldn't get rid of them like Madara did even before Kamui was used to counter his phasing.

It's also fair to acknowledge that Obito is also Kakashi's greatest counter since he outright said that his ability doesn't work on him but on the flipside Kakashi is hit with crippling MS recoil each time he uses it, unlike Obito.

So he's technically killing and blinding himself each time he "counters Obito."

Madara also never stated he alone would defeat Juubito with Sage Mode, it's implied he could simply weaken him enough

, that was the context.

and have Zetsu help him rip out the Bijuu and revive him

, or more accurately, defeating him.

, as it happened in canon. By ''switching places'', it means sending Zetsu to take control of his body to cast the Rinne Rebirth jutsu, as he previously did before Obito became JJ. But for Zetsu to do that, Madara must weaken him, like Naruto and Sasuke did.

Only after Obito was "weakened", as in defeated, did Madara send Zetsu to do his job.

In short, Zetsu wouldn't have had any role in combating Juubito and would have been completely useless in that regard considering he cucked down to Kakashi and Minato.

- but Madara's statements should be taken with a grain of salt considering his predictions and gauging of his strength in comparison to elite shinobi are commonly incorrect, like the 3 times he stated he could defeat Hashirama and failed,

I disagree. Even if you think Madara was wrong, the fight was extremely close. To the point he was considered Hashirama's equal and the fight came down to a razor-thin margin.

SM Madara would at worst have to be on Juubito's level.

him taking down 6P Naruto and Sasuke initially etc.

He only said he'd take them down after getting his 2nd Rinnegan.

But my point wasn't that Obito is stronger than Madara, just that they are simply relative in strength

Madara is clearly shown as the superior, by a large metric.

Obito is stronger than Minato and definitely stronger than BM Naruto

He was stronger than BM Naruto but there's no evidence he was stronger than Minato.

All Minato is compared to BM Naruto with is travel speed, not power -

Technically, Minato would be superior to BM Naruto based on he said about Obito.

which is exactly what Naruto needed to take down Obito, speed.

Minato says he needed strength.

"You need a certain set of skills to take down that man",

That's a mistranslation.

.

That ''extraordinary strength'' refers to Kurama's power manifested in BM. .

In short, Minato is unsure Naruto can replicate what he did 17 years ago even with BM, and we later see he was right, BM Naruto still needed Kakashi to accomplish what Minato did on his own.

and Minato was only able to do this with his teleportation speed

Teleportation is part of his power.

I agree with this, the Edo Jins would also just regen

But 7G as you just said was inefficient against Obito, who could just hard counter him anyway with Bijuu and phasing.

Not if 7G Gai is faster than SM Minato who's faster than Base Minato who overcame his phasing.

That was when the Jutsu were clashing together,

Daikodan wasn't stated to have been affected by the Hirudora.

The opposite was stated, that it had no effect on it because it wasn't made up of chakra. Such a point wouldn't have been made if the Daikodan was still affecting Hirudora somehow.

Kisame also reacted at point-blank range, long after Hirudora passed through Daikodan.

Do you have a scan or way to interpret Daikodan equalling a good portion of Bee's chakra?

My way of interpreting is that the Daikodan was comparable in size to the Hirudora, so sligthtly bigger than Madara's V3 Susano'o.

To me, that definitely looks like a good amount of chakra.

It's not the main reason I used, it's just a supporting statement. Kisame had his chakra + Bee's.

This isn't impressive. If that's all it takes to perceive a Hirudora when V2 Ay can't follow KCM1 Naruto's flicker, let alone KCM2.

It's stated by Kurama he is stronger than the average Bijuu,

He says he should do something because he has the second highest number of tails upon which Gyuki contradicts the idea that a Bijuu's power is tied to the number of tails.

and by Kisame himself (a Bijuu expert) that the potency and amount of Bee's chakra differs exponentially in comparison to the other Bijuu

"You really are deserving of being one less than the nine tails", implying it's on a greater level than other Bijuu.

He's not on a greater level than other Bijuu. Only Kurama is.

He didn't do anything noteworthy against Obito's Jins to stand out, aside from being pressured by their V2 selves in BM, and ragdolled by their BM selves. He's definitely on their level, not above.

Kisame's statement isn't any accurate because his comment was limited to V2 Bee's output, not BM. At best, his statement proves V2 Bee is stronger than the other V2 Jins by an unquantifiable amount, and the gap can be minimal. However, this has 0 bearing on how he compares to them in BM.

Either way, Gyuki is still vastly inferior compared to Kurama, so this doesn't change much. A4, who has better speed hype than Kisame even in base, could not follow KCM1 Naruto's flicker even with Gyuki levels of chakra amplifying his nerve transmissions.

Samehada does nothing to help him against Gai

Samehada would offer Kisame a speed and reaction amp because and is able to .

If Kisame fuses with it he gains its speed, strength perhaps durability. Keep in mind that Samehada barely took any damage from V2 Bee's lariat, which did more damage to Kisame than Gai's Hirudora.

I'm even willing to say that if Kisame had Samehada when he fought Gai he would have won.

50 percent?

IIRC, there's a statement about swordsman of the mist ninja who lose their blade to be 50% nerfed.

Either way, I think the reasoning above definitely accounts for a 50% nerf.

A handful?

Bee collapsed after having his chakra taken, it was quite a considerable amount

Wasn't he already drained from the prior fight?

Just compare how long it took Samehada to drain Bee when he was fighting Kisame compared to the instance you referenced.

And was it really Gyuki's chakra too, or just Bee's? Because as far as I know, Base Jins only get access to their Bijuu's chakra if the Bijuu in question actively infuses them with it. Like Kurama did to Naruto at VotE 2. Or if the seal allows the Bijuu chakra to leak into their base reserves.

The only focuses on the scene was on Bee's chakra, not Gyuki's. Gyuki's chakra was only stated to be absorbed when Bee was messing around with V1 and V2 cloaks.

If it was just Bee's chakra, not Gyuki's, this makes 7G Gai's speed look even worse.

, meaning that a good portion of that chakra went into restoring his base.

There's nothing that says A4 didn't react though -

Naruto's position.

when he got blitzed, because he couldn't follow A4's movement.

Naruto simply just dodged it mirroring his father, who Ay could also mentally react to twice

Ay only mentally reacted to Minato's striking speed, not his teleportation.

Minato's.

Gaara can simply not be as shocked by Juubito's power anymore

I mean it respectfully, but this is pushing it.

and we already have other statements that would portray Juubito above a god like Madara, such as from his rival who conceded inferiority to unstable Juubito and Kishi as well

And Gai conceded inferiority to BM Naruto, who's compared to Minato.

Amazed at such speed existing, or amazed that Naruto could move that fast

Exactly, and Hirudora's speed never drew such a reaction from him.

And while he doesn't have control over his landing and lacks the finesse, there's no indication he moved slower than he normally could there - that Shunshin was compared directly to Minato's teleportation, he just didn't have Minato's skill as he got stuck in the wall like an idiot

We don't know if KCM Naruto's first body flicker was compared to Minato's teleportation or Minato's own body flicker that Bee last saw.*

The odds of his first flicker being faster than V2 Ay's are slim, given that Bee thought his brother would kill him and was shocked Naruto outran him. That's not a reaction deserving of someone who saw Naruto flickering with >>> V2 Ay speeds.

Minato still partially swung the Rasengan though, and was able to intercept and react to 8G Gai movement speed



Take a look at Minato's arm, it moved a decent distance before it was sliced off

I don't think this counts as evidence. Madara could have cut his arm off before he swung and Minato could have moved a bit afterward out of reflex, giving us that angle.

Either way, if Minato only moved partially how can Gaara get an accurate of measure of his speed to compare it with Gai's?

Gai moved multiple times which gave Gaara a better understanding of his speed compared to Minato's.

In pure travel speed, which is different to combat speed

I see, but if his combat speed can't be proved to be fast enough to intercept their much faster travel speeds he is still blitz material to them.

What would you personally make of it?

More just baseless hype that doesn't scale anywhere?

Exactly.

It's simply Gaara's way of saying "fast". We can't extrapolate any further without getting into massive assumptions and ignoring Gai's inferiority to the characters he was depicted as inferior in statements, feats and hype.

Gaara calling Madara godlike but not Juubito is another reason this doesn't work.

At best, you can argue 7G Gai's combat speed is fast enough that Gaara's sand may not be able to properly keep up, as it's a callback to his P1 fight with Lee. This only puts 7G Gai's combat speed above A4's, which isn't really that impressive because the likes of Suigetsu, Base Bee and 3T Sasuke kept up with it.

But this doesn't mean Gai has ''inhuman'' attack speed, because using that logic so would P1 Lee have inhuman speed and would be the fastest person Gaara ever saw, and that's impossible because Gaara has seen faster Jonins fight before, he likely saw his father fighting too. He then saw V2 Ay and didn't call him inhuman.

Would you compare it at least to V2 Ay?

No, slower.

Granted, you could also say that the movement could be in his ability to actually throw punches and kicks, with fluidity and agility which can be beyond that of a human

Perhaps.

That makes sense too, given Gai's whole thing is about giving people the hands.

Agreed.

Fair

 

[WinNo1929]

I'm merely stating what happens if we go off his Lee statement and later showings.

But you're making a positive claim that he changed his mind.

If you make a positive claim you can't just say there's nothing contradicting it therefore it's true. Evidence of him changing his mind has to be shown.

I understand, but i'm not making the claim that there it's true due to a lack of evidence contradicting it, which is why i included the absence of evidence point

There simply isn't enough for either of us to have a leg to stand on with that point, but i believe my perspective that your standards change in accordance to your current level is both realistic and fair.

The same way Kakashi kept calling Kakuzu fast in his fight but then never said any such compliments against Obito - doesn't make Kakuzu faster than Obito unless your a KCM2 Kakuzu goon lol

But this also applies for the Gai point.

He also saw people with better speed hype than Gai. Juubito, A4, KCM Naruto, and BSM Naruto.

But he only called Gai inhuman.

Yes, because at that particular point Gai could have blown his expectations and standards moreso than the others.

Not to mention for at least 2 of those characters they'd be verging on what it means to be human anyway, especially Obito

But it's not beyond comprehension. Because Kisame comprehended his striking speed.

Beyond Gaara's comprehension of what a human is capable of doing

Not really. A much stronger Naruto than his PA self was shocked at A3, but against Pain, who also has god reputation, he had the audacity to run his mouth.

Do you disagree that A3 is > Pain in physical durability?

Pain was shitting himself at FRS, A3 was literally tanking stronger ones by Naruto with a few scratches at most

Because that's the basis for your stance.

If you are saying that Gaara doesn't have to say anything about Juubito or BSM Naruto, such as calling them inhuman, because they already have "hype". Then I can use the same reasoning for Gai.

Gaara doesn't have to call A4, KCM 1-2, and BSM Naruto inhuman or the fastest for them to scale above Gai because they already have better hype and

But my argument shouldn't need to operate on one character solely making statements about particular characters to get my point across.

Gaara doesn't necessarily have to commentate on everything in order for us to gauge it, but when he does give his thoughts, it can help us measure a character in correlation with the context of the statement.

Gaara not saying anything for Juubito or BSM Naruto but saying something for Gai doesn't mean that his Gai statement is invalid

feats than Gai does.

I'd agree KCM2 and BSM do, but not KCM1

This doesn't work for a positive claim.

You were the one making that claim though

And we have statements and feats putting A4 and KCM Naruto above Gai in speed.

Besides, I can use your argument from another angle. Since we have statements and hype for A4, Naruto and Minato saying they are faster than Gai as much as statements confirming Juubito's position over Madara's, then Gaara's statements can't be used to scale people he calls godlike or inhuman above everyone else.

It simply means he considers them strong or very fast.

What statements have A4, Naruto and Minato over Gai in combat speed?

You keep mixing in travel speed (im assuming that's what you are referencing) to combat speed, when they are two seperate measurements when it comes to speed

My argument has never been Gai can move from point A to point B faster than them, it's only been about his combat speed exceeding that of theirs

But this works against your point and supports my own. Since Gai also confirms his inferiority himself.

Madara admitting inferiority to Juubito is no different than Gai admitting inferiority to BM Naruto.

Yet, Gaara called the inferior ones "goodlike" and "inhuman".

Yes, in the context of combat speed and Taijutsu.

You can be > someone in certain areas but below them in others.

KCM1 can have a faster flicker than Gai, but his combat speed is unarguably slower given he was getting blitzed by Obito's Gunbai in CQC meanwhile Gai was blocking it and reacting to it

But that's based on pre-existing hype. And the same would apply to Minato, A4 and Naruto.

Meaning they would simply not have done anything to raise such a reaction from Gaara

It wouldn't, for the same reason he didn't call Juubito godlike, who is stronger than Madara, whom he called godlike.

Again, you don't need to commentate on everything for a statement to be true, otherwise nearly all character statements would be omitted and irrelevant.

Gaara was barely fighting Juubito up close anyway as I mentioned earlier

Or, for the same reason he didn't call BSM Naruto inhuman.

Gaara also wasn't spectating Naruto fight Juubito like Gai fought Juudara, he was involved actively trying to help him out

He called 7G Gai inhuman but nothing on 8G on that level - does that mean by your logic 7G > 8G because Gaara never updated his statement?

No, because you don't need to constantly update them and we don't need Gaara to continue making statements to validate previous ones

He does for this comparison to work.

I can too argue Gaara doesn't have to call them inhuman to be superior, because they already have speed hype exceeding Gai's.

No he doesn't, BZ is not a supreme source that overrules everything when it comes to analysis/

And again, is there a reference point you are using for their combat speed exceeding Gai's?

But again, this also applies A4, Naruto and Minato.

Not in terms of combat speed, simply about Shunshin which is different

Me and you both agree that Tobirama would utterly stomp Minato for example, but Minato has a decently faster Shunshin - yet his combat speed is quite literally tiers below Tobirama's

Despite this, Minato is said on multiple occasions to be faster than Tobirama, yet that doesn't invalidate his striking speed being slower considering these statements revolve around travel speed, not combat speed

But so does A4's, Minato's, and Naruto's.

See above

Sure, and this applies to Naruto's observation. It doesn't mean it'll apply to everyone else making inhuman comments.

I agree, because different people have different abilities to comprehend things based on their own individual experiences

Naruto's standards would logically be higher than the average Shinobi given he is way stronger than they are and has most likely fought far more powerful enemies.

Therefore, his ceiling in terms of what he considers to be in his league for example would greatly exceed that of a lesser shinobi.

But the same way he freaks out about A3's durability in comparison to someone like Pain's, or even say Kakuzu makes it very clear how he compares them to A3.

But by your earlier logic, would this be inconsistent since Naruto calls A3 inhuman but never says such a line to Juubidara, who he openly mocks to his face multiple times and isn't amazed by?

I'd assume most likely not, given Madara has the feats to say he can literally face tank Juubidama's

He is the most reliable source, having existed for millennia and witnessed all important events.

Where was he wrong about Itachi's Genjutsu?

Being old doesn't make you correct all the time - Ohnoki is old yet is corrected several times by Gaara.

He stated Tsukuyomi is the greatest Genjutsu, which is immediately contradicted by Itachi himself, Killer Bee and Kishimoto in the databook - while KB might be an exception, there is virtually no way to argue here that Kishi and Itachi are wrong in these statements or that BZ is of higher authority than they are

Also, much like you said he was referring to Kirin in present time, I can say the same about Itachi's Genjutsu being the strongest in the present time.

Koto Amatsukami was in the present time. Danzo and Itachi both had access to it, and Zetsu's partner Obito already knew beforehand Danzo had Koto, meaning Zetsu logically should as well - especially given he seems to be Obito's intel man

But Kurama, Pain, and the other Bijuus were still around at that time.

Which would yet again prove another contradiction for Zetsu's belief. He also states Amaterasu is the most powerful physical attack there is as well (which granted, in a certain context can be argued to be correct due to it's dura neg) but it could also be argued below CT depending on if you think Itachi was truly fucked against it and needed Naruto and Bee's assistance

Zetsu never called them gods, nor inhuman.

Zetsu doesn't need to when we already have statements from other people confirming their status and power in comparison to other Shinobi, and it's not exactly like the Shinobi talent was weak back then with guys like Tobirama

And I'll repeat once again, the author gave A4, Naruto and Minato better speed hype than Gai.

Better movement speed hype yes

So using this reasoning, Gaara doesn't have to call them inhuman to be faster than Gai.

In terms of movement speed they are faster

He doesn't have the feats for that.

But even giving Gai the benefit of the doubt of having >>> SM Minato striking speed how does that prove he can react to those flickers?

KCM 1-2 flickers could be so much faster than SM Minato's combat/striking speed that he'd get physically blitzed.

He may lack the mental reactions altogether.

I don't have an issue with this argument, but what are you basing it off?

Where would you scale the flicker?

Why doesn't he have the durability? Again, his statement emphasized speed, not durability.

He just doesn't, idk why but he pretty clearly can't blow up Bijuudama's with his fists

His statement was about speed yes, but as i pointed out alongside Naruto's speed there was also the fact he was physically strong enough to flick away the Bijuudama's

And no, Minato does not scale to this durability in the slightest given his horrendous AP ceiling in comparison to Naruto

KCM2 > KCM1 > SM PA > Minato = IA Naruto

So he couldn't replicate it

The only comparison was the speed of his flicker, from point A to point B which mimicked Minato's Flying Raijin teleportation

Is there any evidence BM Bee and BM Naruto were fatigued? Gai had no reason to be fatigued since he mostly faced Obito in base.

Yes, right after they shot their final Bijuu Barrage against them they collapsed to the floor and both Bijuu had to leave BM to recover chakra and they were huffing and puffing

He also acknowledged the Gokage, who were ants next to him.

That's a form of whataboutism, but yes - he praised the Gokage's full power, which required him to bust out his V5 Susanoo - which is what they were ants compared to

It still doesn't contradict my position, and the Gokage bare zero similarities to BM Naruto and BM Bee unless you are a massive Gokage wanker

He couldn't get rid of them like Madara did even before Kamui was used to counter his phasing.

It's also fair to acknowledge that Obito is also Kakashi's greatest counter since he outright said that his ability doesn't work on him but on the flipside Kakashi is hit with crippling MS recoil each time he uses it, unlike Obito.

So he's technically killing and blinding himself each time he "counters Obito."

Obito couldn't get rid of them because he was forced to fight on the defensive to both revive the Juubi and protect it simultaneously. He literally couldn't leave the statue unguarded, he had multiple priorities to balance which distracted him during the battle unlike Madara who solely had to focus on the Gokage - a team far below Obito's battle.

The ability doesn't work on warping Obito, since he can obviously just warp himself back - but the ability is still a complete counter because Obito can't phase through attacks, as we see when Kakashi works it out. Also Kakashi was getting healed by Naruto/Kyuubi, so it really wasn't a big drain.

And if we are talking about drainage, Obito was the one fatigued during the duration of the entire battle as a result of controlling 6 Bijuu - stated to be a "considerable amount of chakra" (a point you used to argue Kisame was diminished by), and trying to counterbalance the power of the Rinnegan which was literally making him go insane.

So if anyone was fatigued during that match, it was Obito - who had to control 6 Bijuu, control the Rinnegan, fight a 4 man cell in which he initially held back against 2 of them, had to revive the Juubi, had to protect the Gedo and then had to deal with having the team possess the sole counter for his arsenal - yet he still was getting the better of them.

, that was the context.

, or more accurately, defeating him.

, as it happened in canon. By ''switching places'', it means sending Zetsu to take control of his body to cast the Rinne Rebirth jutsu, as he previously did before Obito became JJ. But for Zetsu to do that, Madara must weaken him, like Naruto and Sasuke did.

Only after Obito was "weakened", as in defeated, did Madara send Zetsu to do his job.

In short, Zetsu wouldn't have had any role in combating Juubito and would have been completely useless in that regard considering he cucked down to Kakashi and Minato.

Yes, but that doesn't mean Madara would outright defeat Obito - just get him weak enough for Zetsu to take over and then overpower Obito

Also Madara had/has a form of control over Obito given he could literally make rinnegan rods spawn into Obito's body that he himself built in as we see on top of the Juubi.

Zetsu doesn't need to do that, Zetsu can simply take over Obito's body when he is weakened from fighting Madara and then make him use Rinne Rebirth before the Bijuu come out - and then Madara can annihilate a weakened damaged Obito with his alive body

I disagree. Even if you think Madara was wrong, the fight was extremely close. To the point he was considered Hashirama's equal and the fight came down to a razor-thin margin.

SM Madara would at worst have to be on Juubito's level.

Madara is still incorrect several times, and the Hashirama statement is even funnier when you consider they were equals after Madara had to steal the 100 percent nine tails to even fight Hashirama and stack it with his PS, in which Hashirama had to use SS which exhausted him from the get go of that battle.

Yet he still lost to fatigued Hashirama, so the scale is really Hashirama >= VOTE Madara + Kyuubi >> Madara

And he stated he would beat Hashirama in their first fight flash back - he lost.
He stated he would defeat him at VOTE with an additional power up (like he did against Juubito) - he lost
He stated he would steal his power and defeat him 1v1 in the WA - he was about to get sealed and got countered despite having brand new abilities

He is an arrogant buffoon

He only said he'd take them down after getting his 2nd Rinnegan.

Which was still incorrect given he was getting stalemated by literally a single fatebro alone

He would have gotten stomped

Madara is clearly shown as the superior, by a large metric.

Is he?

Obito is able to react to things arguably faster, he is able to cast Jutsu with the same AP and speed several times, and Shikaku who is analysing them doesn't make any differentiation between them.

He was stronger than BM Naruto but there's no evidence he was stronger than Minato.

Seriously?

YM Obito as a teenager was essentially even stevens with Minato - by the logic of puberty he literally would be stronger than Minato since he had to have gotten a split second faster through his body developing

He also straight up would have killed Minato had he not hesitated with his warp - call it PIS or whatever, but that's a fact

Technically, Minato would be superior to BM Naruto based on he said about Obito.

Not necessarily. Minato only beat him because of his skills and trickery and the fact Obito made a huge rookie error

Minato says he needed strength.

That's a mistranslation.

.

That ''extraordinary strength'' refers to Kurama's power manifested in BM. .

In short, Minato is unsure Naruto can replicate what he did 17 years ago even with BM, and we later see he was right, BM Naruto still needed Kakashi to accomplish what Minato did on his own.

I stand corrected then in regards to the translation

Still, my point stands about what Minato did - that fight against an arguably weaker Obito (the Konan fight example of him reacting to Kamui should be enough to put him >> Minato) was basically only won through his special move that Naruto doesn't have and the fact Obito made two seperate mistakes

Teleportation is part of his power.

Obviously, but it's a power Naruto doesn't have

Not if 7G Gai is faster than SM Minato who's faster than Base Minato who overcame his phasing.

In combat speed, and Minato only overcame it because Obito hesitated and didn't use his full speed

Daikodan wasn't stated to have been affected by the Hirudora.

The opposite was stated, that it had no effect on it because it wasn't made up of chakra. Such a point wouldn't have been made if the Daikodan was still affecting Hirudora somehow.

Kisame also reacted at point-blank range, long after Hirudora passed through Daikodan.

They were clashing together briefly, but the Jutsu effect didn't work in absorbing it

And yes, Kisame mentally reacted - not physically though

My way of interpreting is that the Daikodan was comparable in size to the Hirudora, so sligthtly bigger than Madara's V3 Susano'o.

To me, that definitely looks like a good amount of chakra.

Fair, but in terms of consistency then the same drainage argument should apply to Obito above

This isn't impressive. If that's all it takes to perceive a Hirudora when V2 Ay can't follow KCM1 Naruto's flicker, let alone KCM2.

Scan of Ay not being able to mentally react to his flicker?

He says he should do something because he has the second highest number of tails upon which Gyuki contradicts the idea that a Bijuu's power is tied to the number of tails.

He's not on a greater level than other Bijuu. Only Kurama is.

Gyuki's statement is taken out of context

he acknowledges Kurama is the strongest, but he doesn't like how he bases his measurement of strength purely on the tails - however when we see Kurama fight the Bijuu, Gyuki is literally amazed at how strong he is.

And no, Kisame was hyped up on seeing both the quality and quantity of Gyuki's chakra, which he compared in reputation to the nine tails in terms of being tied into power/tails.

Gyuki is > the other Bijuu, he literally matches Kurama's Bijuu barrage

He didn't do anything noteworthy against Obito's Jins to stand out, aside from being pressured by their V2 selves in BM, and ragdolled by their BM selves. He's definitely on their level, not above.

He actually did, because he had to fend off multiple ones at the same time and even rocked 3 tails really badly too

Kisame's statement isn't any accurate because his comment was limited to V2 Bee's output, not BM. At best, his statement proves V2 Bee is stronger than the other V2 Jins by an unquantifiable amount, and the gap can be minimal. However, this has 0 bearing on how he compares to them in BM.

It does, because he says Gyuki's chakra is potent in comparison to other jins, so even if that's V2 then if they both go BM Gyuki's should still be higher

Either way, Gyuki is still vastly inferior compared to Kurama, so this doesn't change much. A4, who has better speed hype than Kisame even in base, could not follow KCM1 Naruto's flicker even with Gyuki levels of chakra amplifying his nerve transmissions.

There's nothing to say he couldn't follow KCM1 flicker, as a teen he was confident he could react to Minato's teleportation or at least time it

Samehada would offer Kisame a speed and reaction amp because and is able to .

Fair point

If Kisame fuses with it he gains its speed, strength perhaps durability. Keep in mind that Samehada barely took any damage from V2 Bee's lariat, which did more damage to Kisame than Gai's Hirudora.

This is also valid

I'm even willing to say that if Kisame had Samehada when he fought Gai he would have won.

I can see that tbh lol now that you mentioned these things

IIRC, there's a statement about swordsman of the mist ninja who lose their blade to be 50% nerfed.

I'll have a look

Either way, I think the reasoning above definitely accounts for a 50% nerf.

Fair

Wasn't he already drained from the prior fight?

Just compare how long it took Samehada to drain Bee when he was fighting Kisame compared to the instance you referenced.

And was it really Gyuki's chakra too, or just Bee's? Because as far as I know, Base Jins only get access to their Bijuu's chakra if the Bijuu in question actively infuses them with it. Like Kurama did to Naruto at VotE 2. Or if the seal allows the Bijuu chakra to leak into their base reserves.

The only focuses on the scene was on Bee's chakra, not Gyuki's. Gyuki's chakra was only stated to be absorbed when Bee was messing around with V1 and V2 cloaks.

If it was just Bee's chakra, not Gyuki's, this makes 7G Gai's speed look even worse.

, meaning that a good portion of that chakra went into restoring his base.

No, Bee hadn't been drained from the fight

And Bee was drained almost instantly against Kisame, he actually asked Gyuki for chakra since he was nearly out very early on

it was Bee's chakra, but he can mix his chakra with Gyuki's - it's contentious but i can concede that point

But the restoration was still better

If Bee's chakra level is a 3/5 and Kisame's normal chakra is a 2, and he gets his chakra restored using Bees chakra instead of his - he would be stronger than normal as a result

Naruto's position.

when he got blitzed, because he couldn't follow A4's movement.

Agree to disagree here.

Ay only mentally reacted to Minato's striking speed, not his teleportation.

Minato's.

He was prepared to teleport to one of his Kunai to tag him and looked over to when he teleported on the tree. His percpetions werent blitzed, he even reacted to him dissapearing

I mean it respectfully, but this is pushing it.

Lol no offence taken, but why do you disagree with it?

you don't think Shinobi adjust to things mid fight?

And Gai conceded inferiority to BM Naruto, who's compared to Minato.

Comparable in Shunshin and thats it

Exactly, and Hirudora's speed never drew such a reaction from him.

He already had high praise for Gai beforehand, therefore his standards can be higher than those compared to Naruto's - who he hasn't seen for years

We don't know if KCM Naruto's first body flicker was compared to Minato's teleportation or Minato's own body flicker that Bee last saw.*

The odds of his first flicker being faster than V2 Ay's are slim, given that Bee thought his brother would kill him and was shocked Naruto outran him. That's not a reaction deserving of someone who saw Naruto flickering with >>> V2 Ay speeds.

So you think it was Minato's shunshin compared to it, like the databook comparing RCM to Minato's body flicker?

That's fine

I don't think this counts as evidence. Madara could have cut his arm off before he swung and Minato could have moved a bit afterward out of reflex, giving us that angle.

Either way, if Minato only moved partially how can Gaara get an accurate of measure of his speed to compare it with Gai's?

Gai moved multiple times which gave Gaara a better understanding of his speed compared to Minato's.

He still managed to move his arm a certain amount of distance, so it wasn't immediately cut off - that much is inarguable.

It's all the way behind him to slightly in front of his waste, had it been cut off immediately his shoulder and waist wouldn't ahve moved forward like that

And that's a fair point in regards to Gaara's perception of Minato... as well as another point we both seemed to have missed, which is that there was a giant wall of sand blocking Gaara's view of Minato since he walled off Obito....

I see, but if his combat speed can't be proved to be fast enough to intercept their much faster travel speeds he is still blitz material to them.

Agreed, but how do you view his shunshin >>>> gais reactions?

Exactly.

It's simply Gaara's way of saying "fast". We can't extrapolate any further without getting into massive assumptions and ignoring Gai's inferiority to the characters he was depicted as inferior in statements, feats and hype.

Gaara calling Madara godlike but not Juubito is another reason this doesn't work.

At best, you can argue 7G Gai's combat speed is fast enough that Gaara's sand may not be able to properly keep up, as it's a callback to his P1 fight with Lee. This only puts 7G Gai's combat speed above A4's, which isn't really that impressive because the likes of Suigetsu, Base Bee and 3T Sasuke kept up with it.

But this doesn't mean Gai has ''inhuman'' attack speed, because using that logic so would P1 Lee have inhuman speed and would be the fastest person Gaara ever saw, and that's impossible because Gaara has seen faster Jonins fight before, he likely saw his father fighting too. He then saw V2 Ay and didn't call him inhuman.

This is a fair interpretation

No, slower.

Then where would you have it?

 

[Monarch]

I understand, but i'm not making the claim that there it's true due to a lack of evidence contradicting it

, which is why i included the absence of evidence point. There simply isn't enough for either of us to have a leg to stand on with that point

Your stance is operating on 2 assumptions:

1. Gaara called Gai inhuman, therefore he is faster than anyone he's ever seen before.

2. Gaara changed his pespective on Lee.

Assumptions are generally arguments without evidence, and an argument without evidence can be dismissed by an argument without evidence.

but i believe my perspective that your standards change in accordance to your current level is both realistic and fair.

That's one perspective, but it doesn't necessarily hold up, for the reasons I'll explain below:

The same way Kakashi kept calling Kakuzu fast in his fight but then never said any such compliments against Obito - doesn't make Kakuzu faster than Obito unless your a KCM2 Kakuzu goon lol

That doesn't mean Kakashi's perception changed at all. He can still consider Kakuzu fast even after seeing KCM 2 Naruto.

Kakashi pulled off his Sharingan and was visibly sweating at P1 Lee's movements, even calling him fast, despite seeing Minato countless times.

"Fast" is subjective anyway. The issue is people on this forum believe that if character X calls character Y fast that means character Y must be faster than character Z, which isn't accurate.

It's just unquantifiable hype.

Madara calls A4 real fast but doesn't do the same for BM Naruto. Can we say he considered A4 faster than BM Naruto or Hashirama, who has constructs capable of tagging Juubi Jins?

This also applies to Gaara, he can still consider P1 Lee "inhuman" despite witnessing faster individuals.

The problem with this stance is that you are basing it on the assumption that the speed of Gai's movements can't be replicated by anyone else as you're taking his word hyperliterally.

Yes, because at that particular point Gai could have blown his expectations and standards moreso than the others.

But this is unprovable and doesn't work fundamentally. Can we also say V2 A4 blew Madara's standards and expectations more than Hashirama who has constructs capable of tagging Juubito?

Not to mention for at least 2 of those characters they'd be verging on what it means to be human anyway, especially Obito

Beyond Gaara's comprehension of what a human is capable of doing

That's not necessarily true either. Gaara saw Edo Madara who's physically fast enough to neg the same KCM2 flicker that Gai cucked down to, but didn't call inhumanly fast.

You may say Gaara called him godlike, but that was in reference to his Tengai Shinsei, not his physicals.

Do you disagree that A3 is > Pain in physical durability?

Pain was shitting himself at FRS, A3 was literally tanking stronger ones by Naruto with a few scratches at most

You misunderstood my point. I never implied Pain has superior durability. What I'm saying is that ''god'' reputation isn't necessarily better than ''inhuman'' hype. Pain has a ''god'' reputation, yet Naruto was shocked by A3, not by Pain.

I'm not even comparing their durability, just Naruto's reaction to their overall power in general.

But my argument shouldn't need to operate on one character solely making statements about particular characters to get my point across.

Gaara doesn't necessarily have to commentate on everything in order for us to gauge it, but when he does give his thoughts, it can help us measure a character in correlation with the context of the statement.

Gaara not saying anything for Juubito or BSM Naruto but saying something for Gai doesn't mean that his Gai statement is invalid

If Gaara doesn't have to commentate on everything for us and you acknowledge that he saw faster characters without calling them inhuman, then the idea that he must consider Gai faster than anyone he has ever seen before no longer works. Using this logic, he doesn't have to comment on A4 for us to acknowledge him as faster than Gai or Lee, but he can call them inhuman if he wants to tell the audience they are fast. Just like Madara calls A4 fast but not BM Naruto or Juubito.

If Gaara saw faster individuals that he didn't comment on, then why only Juubito and BSM Naruto are faster than Gai, but not Ay4, Minato, and KCM 2 Naruto (who all have better speed hype than him)?

You said Gai could have blown his expectations more compared to the others, but the "others" include Juubito and BSM Naruto.

Because of that, Gai should be scaled above Juubito and BSM Naruto in combat speed too.

What statements have A4, Naruto and Minato over Gai in combat speed?

Technically speaking, Naruto's first display of speed that left Kisame more shocked than defibrillated body included a punch. Ay4's fastest punch is delivered with his flicker, that you consider faster than Gai's.

Don't think Minato has any that I know of.

You keep mixing in travel speed (im assuming that's what you are referencing) to combat speed, when they are two seperate measurements when it comes to speed
My argument has never been Gai can move from point A to point B faster than them, it's only been about his combat speed exceeding that of theirs

I'm not mixing them.

The distinction between combat speed and travel speed doesn't work in this context.

First off, Gaara uses the word "movements" so it's impossible to tell whether he was referring to Gai's combat speed, travel speed, or both. Gai was using both his combat and travel speeds against Juudara. You can't isolate that interaction to combat speed alone.

Secondly, Gaara's reaction is a callback to his fight with Lee, in which Lee's travel speed was emphasized multiple times. [, , , , ] Coincidentally, the instance during which Gaara calls Lee inhuman presents the latter's travel speed as too fast for his sand too, not just his combat speed. [] Gai also dashed (travel speed) at Madara before Gaara called him inhuman. Since this is a callback to P1, Gaara was definitely referring to 7G's travel speed too.

Third, running and body flicker are movements. Both kicking (which is what Gai was doing) and body flicker involve the use of the legs. If A4 moves his legs faster than Gai's upon using his body flicker, he'd exceed the speed of Gai's kicks that Gaara called inhuman. When A4 uses his fastest punch, his combat speed would scale to his flicker since he is punching mid-flicker. Meaning that his combat speed would also exceed Gai's upon flickering.

Yes, in the context of combat speed and Taijutsu.

You can be > someone in certain areas but below them in others.

See above.

KCM1 can have a faster flicker than Gai, but his combat speed is unarguably slower given he was getting blitzed by Obito's Gunbai in CQC meanwhile Gai was blocking it and reacting to it

He was never blitzed by his war fan, what you describe is a counterattack made possible by Sharingan precognition.

What Obito , he's counterattacking Naruto. Sasuke the back at VotE. Naruto doesn't even call him fast or says he's unable to keep up, he's saying Sasuke is .

The clones were in a compromised position since they missed their attack and Obito attacked them before they recovered to a defensive one. Same happened with A3, Human Path and Tobirama.

When Naruto's not in a vulnerable position despite the fact that Obito tried to blindside Naruto with it.

Base Gai scaling to attacks that ''blitz'' KCM Naruto makes 0 sense when earlier on we see him ending up overwhelmed in 6G by even less V2 Jins it took to overcome a fatigued KCM Naruto.

Meaning they would simply not have done anything to raise such a reaction from Gaara

Characters' statements can't be used like that.

Again, Gaara called Madara godlike but not Juubito or the ISO.

Madara called A4 fast, not BM Naruto.

Again, you don't need to commentate on everything for a statement to be true,

So Gaara doesn't have to commentate on A4 for A4's speed to be above Gai's, then.

Gaara also wasn't spectating Naruto fight Juubito like Gai fought Juudara, he was involved actively trying to help him out

to and right in . Gaara definitely saw that as he was facing that direction.

He saw the massive hole Juubito created, because he got down there.

.

Since the ISO extended its tails toward Juubito immediately after overpowering him in the final clash and Gaara appeared instantly on-panel afterward that means he witnessed the final clash as well.

He also seen , but didn't call him inhuman.

So he did see more than enough. But realistically, and bring him in that state is more than enough.

He called 7G Gai inhuman but nothing on 8G on that level - does that mean by your logic 7G > 8G because Gaara never updated his statement?

No, the logic that 7G is > 8G would be yours, not mine.

Because he called 7G inhuman, not 8G.

Not in terms of combat speed, simply about Shunshin which is different

Me and you both agree that Tobirama would utterly stomp Minato for example, but Minato has a decently faster Shunshin - yet his combat speed is quite literally tiers below Tobirama's

Not sure Tobirama stomps Minato, but I do agree he is stronger.

I do agree Tobirama's speed is faster than Minato's but there's 0 evidence it's ''tiers'' faster. There's no evidence Minato is faster in flicker either, unless you believe Tobirama referred to his body flicker when he called him better, but it's also arguable he referred to his FTG.

But by your earlier logic, would this be inconsistent since Naruto calls A3 inhuman but never says such a line to Juubidara, who he openly mocks to his face multiple times and isn't amazed by?

No, it wouldn't be inconsistent because Naruto already called Juubito's power beyond how he even imagined himself becoming.

The inconsistencies lie in Gaara's statements.

I'd assume most likely not, given Madara has the feats to say he can literally face tank Juubidama's

What feats does he have to say he can tank Juubidama?

Being old doesn't make you correct all the time - Ohnoki is old yet is corrected several times by Gaara.

Ohnoki isn't thousands of years old.

He stated Tsukuyomi is the greatest Genjutsu, which is immediately contradicted by Itachi himself, Killer Bee and Kishimoto in the databook - while KB might be an exception, there is virtually no way to argue here that Kishi and Itachi are wrong in these statements or that BZ is of higher authority than they are

By the same coin, Gaara would be wrong about Gai as well, because there are multiple statements and feats putting the individuals mentioned above him in speed. Just like Zetsu called Kirin inhuman despite witnessing the Founders fight each other and knowing individuals like Pain.

Koto Amatsukami was in the present time. Danzo and Itachi both had access to it, and Zetsu's partner Obito already knew beforehand Danzo had Koto, meaning Zetsu logically should as well - especially given he seems to be Obito's intel man

Obito knowing about Koto doesn't mean Zetsu would as well. It's a reasonable assumption, but still an assumption. And even if I steelman it, why is Gaara reliable but Zetsu isn't?

Which would yet again prove another contradiction for Zetsu's belief. He also states Amaterasu is the most powerful physical attack there is as well (which granted, in a certain context can be argued to be correct due to it's dura neg) but it could also be argued below CT depending on if you think Itachi was truly fucked against it and needed Naruto and Bee's assistance

All of these examples can be used for Gaara's statement about Gai too, you know.

Zetsu doesn't need to when we already have statements from other people confirming their status and power in comparison to other Shinobi, and it's not exactly like the Shinobi talent was weak back then with guys like Tobirama

Already addressed.

Better movement speed hype yes
In terms of movement speed they are faster

Gaara used the word "movements". If you're saying A4 and Naruto have faster movement speed, then aren't you saying they move faster than Gai in all areas?

I don't have an issue with this argument, but what are you basing it off?

On the fact that Gai's combat speed is within Kisame's mental reaction time while KCM1 and 2 flickers are way beyond it.

Where would you scale the flicker?

Don't know because he never shown but way below the speedsters I've mentioned.

He just doesn't, idk why but he pretty clearly can't blow up Bijuudama's with his fists

He doesn't have the blow the bombs with his fist, simply deflect them with his >>> SM Minato combat speed.

His statement was about speed yes, but as i pointed out alongside Naruto's speed there was also the fact he was physically strong enough to flick away the Bijuudama's

He didn't do it with physical strength.

He did it with speed. He used his body flicker, a display of speed. Gai's comment was ''so fast'', not ''so strong'' and Naruto was likened to Minato, who's known for his speed, not strength.

And no, Minato does not scale to this durability in the slightest given his horrendous AP ceiling in comparison to Naruto

KCM2 > KCM1 > SM PA > Minato = IA Naruto

So he couldn't replicate it

Kakashi thought it was his master who did that. So narratively Minato can replicate it, no matter how we try to rationalize it.

Minato has fought with the likes of Bee and A4 who are hyper durable but still stalemated them multiple times. Portrayal matters more than how we think his AP works in this context.

Yes, right after they shot their final Bijuu Barrage against them they collapsed to the floor and both Bijuu had to leave BM to recover chakra and they were huffing and puffing

This happened long after the fight I'm talking about.

I'm referring to this instance, in which . If he wanted he could have finished all of them off before Naruto figured a way out.

They weren't fatigued here.

That's a form of whataboutism,

No, it's not. It may across as that but the idea is that you can't say BM Bee, BM Naruto and Gai were pressuring Madara in any way, shape or form just because he praised them, because Madara praises people far weaker than himself, and such was the case with the team he one-shotted with a Wooden Dragon, which is a fart next to his PS.

but yes - he praised the Gokage's full power, which required him to bust out his V5 Susanoo - which is what they were ants compared to

He didn't just praised their full power. He praised their defenses, Mei's lava style and A4's teleportation too.

and the Gokage bare zero similarities to BM Naruto and BM Bee unless you are a massive Gokage wanker

I never implied that and I ain't a Gokage wanker either. Only stuff I wank are facts.

The It still doesn't contradict my position,

It does. Because Madara praises people far weaker than himself.

Obito couldn't get rid of them because he was forced to fight on the defensive to both revive the Juubi and protect it simultaneously.

This isn't true. Once the Uchiha Flame Barrier was activated they had his undivided attention.

He literally couldn't leave the statue unguarded,

How is activating a barrier and cancelling Kakashi's Kamui (which heavily taxes him anyway) a distraction or huge handicap?

The ability doesn't work on warping Obito, since he can obviously just warp himself back

Meaning Kakashi's strongest weapon is also countered.

- but the ability is still a complete counter because Obito can't phase through attacks, as we see when Kakashi works it out.

Sure, but Kakashi is at a much bigger disadvantage because unlike Obito he can't spam it and a couple of uses will bleed his chakra reserve dry.

Also Kakashi was getting healed by Naruto/Kyuubi, so it really wasn't a big drain.

This happened after the fight, not during. . The dude almost killed himself ensuring BM Naruto would hit Obito.

And if we are talking about drainage, Obito was the one fatigued during the duration of the entire battle as a result of controlling 6 Bijuu - stated to be a "considerable amount of chakra" (a point you used to argue Kisame was diminished by), and trying to counterbalance the power of the Rinnegan which was literally making him go insane.
So if anyone was fatigued during that match, it was Obito - who had to control 6 Bijuu, control the Rinnegan, fight a 4 man cell in which he initially held back against 2 of them, had to revive the Juubi, had to protect the Gedo and then had to deal with having the team possess the sole counter for his arsenal - yet he still was getting the better of them.

You're confusing large chakra expenditure with exhaustion. Obito was spending large amounts of chakra but that doesn't mean he was exhausted. Throughout the entire fight he didn't exhibit a single sign of exhaustion and never once faltered. Kakashi on the other hand fell on the ground and could barely stand on his legs.

There's no proof the effect of the Rinnegan negatively affected his fighting capacity either.

Yes, but that doesn't mean Madara would outright defeat Obito - just get him weak enough for Zetsu to take over and then overpower Obito

This means he has to weaken Obito to post-extraction levels, because that's the level Zetsu could take over his body.

Also Madara had/has a form of control over Obito given he could literally make rinnegan rods spawn into Obito's body that he himself built in as we see on top of the Juubi.

The only form of control he had over Obito's body was with the seal on his heart.

Zetsu doesn't need to do that, Zetsu can simply take over Obito's body when he is weakened from fighting Madara and then make him use Rinne Rebirth before the Bijuu come out - and then Madara can annihilate a weakened damaged Obito with his alive body

There's no way in hell Zetsu's taking over Juubito's body when and resisted his control. Even if Zetsu could do that, Madara would have to weaken Juubito to the point he wouldn't be capable of dealing with Minato and Kakashi.

Madara is still incorrect several times,

Not when it comes to how his power compares to others.

and the Hashirama statement is even funnier when you consider they were equals after Madara had to steal the 100 percent nine tails to even fight Hashirama

That statement talks about VotE Madara, who had Kurama.

Yet he still lost to fatigued Hashirama, so the scale is really Hashirama >= VOTE Madara + Kyuubi >> Madara

Madara was also fatigued and Hashirama only won because of a lucky clone feint.

And he stated he would beat Hashirama in their first fight flash back - he lost.
He stated he would defeat him at VOTE with an additional power up (like he did against Juubito) - he lost
He stated he would steal his power and defeat him 1v1 in the WA - he was about to get sealed and got countered despite having brand new abilities

But in virtually all of these fights he lost by a razor thin margin. Hashirama was pushed to his limits.

Also, when did he say he'd beat Hashirama in their first fight and at VotE?

Madara doesn't even have to be correct about beating Juubito for my premise to work. Pushing him to his limits is more than enough to put him on that pedestal of power.

Which was still incorrect given he was getting stalemated by literally a single fatebro alone

This isn't true.

Madara was heading towards the moon while both Naruto and Sasuke were busy with his clones and CTs.

This time they were forced into using PS and TBBs.

Neither fatebro could stop Madara from flying to the moon and casting IT, and Naruto would have lost if not for Sasuke's Susano'o protection.

That's not exactly ''stalemated by a single fatebro.''

Even before getting his 2nd Rinnegan , , and .

He would have gotten stomped

Naruto and Sasuke's performances against 2R Madara don't line up with this.

Is he?

Yes.

He has better portrayal on account of being EMS Sasuke's superior, the former being depicted as BSM Naruto's equal. BSM Naruto is stronger than BM Naruto, who's Obito's benchmark according to Minato.

Without even using his full power, he had a far easier time with the team Obito faced.

Obito himself considers himself a shell of Madara's power.

He was also portrayed as the greater threat as a Juubi Jin than Obito, far greater.

The fact that Madara is confident in taking over an Obito who's a Juubi gap stronger than his White Mask self with Edo Hashirama's Sage Mode should tell you more than enough.

Obito is able to react to things arguably faster, he is able to cast Jutsu with the same AP and speed several times,

Not really, Madara's reaction to BM Naruto is much better than Obito's.

Casting jutsu at the same isn't indication of speed equality. BM Bee and BM Naruto used TBBs at the same time but we both know who's faster.

It doesn't even make sense for Obito to react faster than Madara when the latter has EMS which offers a massive reaction amp over the MS.

and Shikaku who is analysing them doesn't make any differentiation between them.

This is a false equivalence.

Seriously?

YM Obito as a teenager was essentially even stevens with Minato - by the logic of puberty he literally would be stronger than Minato since he had to have gotten a split second faster through his body developing

It's never stated the fight came down to a split-second difference. All we are told is that the fight was close, but the words ''split-second'' don't exist in the manga as far as that fight is concerned. It's just a term used on this forum to describe the small gap between them.

You can't quantify how much of a reaction amp Obito gets from going through puberty, we don't know if he gets one in the first place.

A more accurate way of interpreting his strength is Minato's impression of his power. Even when Obito was 14, Minato considered sealing Kurama into Naruto in the hopes that he'll stop him. The same benchmark is used for White Mask Obito in the war arc.

Whatever improvement Obito's got didn't move him out of Minato's weight class.

He also straight up would have killed Minato had he not hesitated with his warp

Sure he would, but that would have counted as an off-guard attack, so it wouldn't have been a fair win.

Not necessarily. Minato only beat him because of his skills and trickery

Skills and trickery are part of his power. If this power allows Minato to deal with people that he considers 50% Kurama level, then he is 50% Kurama level, and that's what the author portrays through Kakashi's impression of BM Naruto.

and the fact Obito made a huge rookie error

We don't know if the fight would have gone any different, and besides, I wouldn't call it an ''error'', it's stated Obito had to end the fight quickly because of Kurama. Ergo, he was forced to do so as much as Minato was.

I stand corrected then in regards to the translation

Still, my point stands about what Minato did - that fight against an arguably weaker Obito (

There's no evidence he was weaker, and if he was, we don't by what extent. Whatever difference you think there is it's marginal because all versions of pre-JJ Obito are stated to require 50% Kurama's power to be messed with.

the Konan fight example of him reacting to Kamui should be enough to put him >> Minato)

Why?

was basically only won through his special move that Naruto doesn't have and the fact Obito made two seperate mistakes

Addressed above.

Obviously, but it's a power Naruto doesn't have

Sure, and he needs BM to make up for it.

In combat speed, and Minato only overcame it because Obito hesitated and didn't use his full speed

They were clashing together briefly, but the Jutsu effect didn't work in absorbing it

Clashing doesn't prove it slowed down or affected the Hirudora in any capacity. Neither Kisame nor Gai pointed out any slowing down in their attacks.

Moreover, the idea that the shark bomb slowed down the Hirudora, which would have also reduced its power, undermines the context of that fight, that Hirudora countered Kisame's attack. Because in the end, both absorbing and slowing it down equals reducing the attack's effectiveness.

And yes, Kisame mentally reacted - not physically though

Actually, Kisame did physically react.

Look at the position of his arms , then .

In the first image his arms are fully extended horizontally. In the second images they are visibly moved down while his upper arm in the bottom image moved to a vertical position. These are 2 physical reactions.

At the very least just before the Hirudora hits him his left arm doesn't appear extended anymore.

Fair, but in terms of consistency then the same drainage argument should apply to Obito above

Sure, it does apply to Obito, but that doesn't he'd be affected by it, because unlike Kakashi he has a much larger chakra reserve and Hashirama cells to cushion the MS recoil.

Scan of Ay not being able to mentally react to his flicker?

Already posted it.

Gyuki's statement is taken out of context

There's nothing taken out of context, Gyuki outright tells him not to decide who's stronger based on the number of tails. That's clearly an implication the rule doesn't work.

If it did, Gyuki wouldn't have been overpowered multiple times by Son Goku or rammed by Kokuo. He never looked stronger than those Bijuus at any point.

he acknowledges Kurama is the strongest, but he doesn't like how he bases his measurement of strength purely on the tails

He outright tells Kurama to stop using that rule.

- however when we see Kurama fight the Bijuu, Gyuki is literally amazed at how strong he is.

But that doesn't necessarily have to do with tails number.

Gyuki is > the other Bijuu, he literally matches Kurama's Bijuu barrage

Just because he can fire 4 TBBs doesn't mean he is stronger than the other Bijuu.

He actually did, because he had to fend off multiple ones at the same time and even rocked 3 tails really badly too

He actually didn't. When Son Goku attacked him it was a and he couldn't overpower him to get Naruto out of his mouth.

He didn't rock anyone,.

It does, because he says Gyuki's chakra is potent in comparison to other jins, so even if that's V2 then if they both go BM Gyuki's should still be higher

No, it wouldn't, because Kisame's statement is limited to V2 output and chakra capacity.

Gyuki can have more potent chakra just fine, but his overall capacity could be smaller in BM compared to the other Bijuu, thus making up for the potency gap.

There's nothing to say he couldn't follow KCM1 flicker

Except his eyes not following it and , like . Or .

Dude hit a rock just like Sasuke hit the Samurai because their targets escaped their LoS.

, as a teen he was confident he could react to Minato's teleportation or at least time it

He never says that. He says he may be capable of getting Minato if he predicts the kunai he'll teleport to.

That's not the equivalent of reacting to teleportation. It's simply trying to guess where Minato will teleport to.

And he never managed to ever pull this off because we know they fought multiple times and Minato's face was still intact.

Fair point

This is also valid

I can see that tbh lol now that you mentioned these things

I'll make a thread for it soon.

I'll have a look

Fair

But the restoration was still better

If Bee's chakra level is a 3/5 and Kisame's normal chakra is a 2, and he gets his chakra restored using Bees chakra instead of his - he would be stronger than normal as a result

Kisame's chakra capacity is Bijuu level, Bee's base capacity without Gyuki's isn't, so it's the exact opposite.

Agree to disagree here.

He was prepared to teleport to one of his Kunai to tag him and

See above.

looked over to when he teleported on the tree.

There's no evidence he looked over to the tree, he was still facing forward. That's a textbook illustration of someone escaping his line of sight, as it happened with Sasuke when A4 dodged Amaterasu, the perfect representation of a full blitz flavored by Karin's comment about his inability to keep up.

A4 looking to the left doesn't prove he was looking at the tree, he could have looked at the kunai marker Minato threw. Even if he looked to the tree doesn't prove he reacted because if he looked at the tree after Minato already left his field of vision it's still a blitz. It's no different than Sasuke looking behind him after he got blitzed.

The only thing he's shown capable of reacting to is Minato's striking speed.

His percpetions werent blitzed, he even reacted to him dissapearing

Reacting to someone disappearing means you are reacting to their disappearance, not to their speed.

, didn't change the fact he was blitzed.

Lol no offence taken, but why do you disagree with it?

Because if that was the case it wouldn't have made any sense for him to call Gai inhuman after witnessing BSM Naruto, Juubito, and BM Minato.

He already had high praise for Gai beforehand, therefore his standards can be higher than those compared to Naruto's - who he hasn't seen for years

But Gaara also didn't see Gai in years, so this only strengthens Kisame's reaction putting Naruto as the fastest person he's ever dealt with before if we use this logic.

So you think it was Minato's shunshin compared to it, like the databook comparing RCM to Minato's body flicker?
That's fine

Yes, Bee uses the word ''teleportation jutsu'' which also refers to body flicker. So it's not mandatory for Naruto's first flicker to be compared to FTG. Only when he dodged A4 is he likened to Minato's FTG.

He still managed to move his arm a certain amount of distance, so it wasn't immediately cut off - that much is inarguable.

It's all the way behind him to slightly in front of his waste, had it been cut off immediately his shoulder and waist wouldn't ahve moved forward like that

Fair.

And that's a fair point in regards to Gaara's perception of Minato... as well as another point we both seemed to have missed, which is that there was a giant wall of sand blocking Gaara's view of Minato since he walled off Obito....

Good observation.

Agreed, but how do you view his shunshin >>>> gais reactions?

I don't necessarily view it one way or another. I'm simply saying that the people claiming Gai can intercept Naruto's flicker with his combat speed must prove his combat speed is fast enough for that.

This is a fair interpretation

Then where would you have it?

Above V1 combat speeds by an unquantifiable margin.

 

[Hasan]

There are 50+ responses and nobody pointed out that OP straight up misconstrued the manga in his opening argument when he tries to explain the context and cut off quite literally the first scan he posts to give the opposite of what's being stated in the manga. This should give anyone a pause - it doesn't really matter whether there's legitimacy to the opposition's claim, that's just insincerity. From that point onward, it's just cherry-picking stuff one after another to dismiss an idea which is something you can do with every instance in the manga. Finally, when he gets to the infamous Juubi Jinchuuriki pressurer stuff, he writes a whole lot to explain something that's basically spoon-fed to the readers. It's reiterating what has already been said countless times before with a slight twist to ~B-but he was totally serious against Minato and not Guy~.

 

[Magon]

the truth is simple, If SM Minato,KCM1 Naruto those around tthis level tries to go sparring with 7g Gai they would get badly slammed.

 

[WinNo1929]

Your stance is operating on 2 assumptions:

1. Gaara called Gai inhuman, therefore he is faster than anyone he's ever seen before.

2. Gaara changed his pespective on Lee.

Assumptions are generally arguments without evidence, and an argument without evidence can be dismissed by an argument without evidence.

This isn't a baseless assumption, it's the only possible way to interpret this statement and i'll explain why

When you make an assertion of a character in comparison to other characters or a group of people - the statement holds weight in the context of your current knowledge.

For example, Kid Gaara questioned if Lee was even a human, yet as a teenager fought alongside Kakashi and didn't make such a claim. Now, does that mean Lee > Kakashi? Obviously not, but what is important to note in order to maintain a consistent narrative is that Gaara's perspective of things and his overall knowledge (which affects these claims) is likely to change in accordance with his new, developed experiences.

These assumptions are fairly straight forward and are supported by evidence presented to us. At the time Gaara fought Rock Lee - Rock Lee was the fastest Human Gaara has ever fought.

At the time Gaara called Gai inhuman - his movements were beyond any human he had seen previously

I'm not seeing the problem with an assumption that explains the context of these, as Gaara would personally have no knowledge of obviously faster and stronger characters than Kid Lee during the CE, and as an adult the same principle applies

The statements have no other alternative interpretation that can be presented (even if that sounds arrogant) outside of it being baseless - which would need to be identified as to why it is baseless

That's one perspective, but it doesn't necessarily hold up, for the reasons I'll explain below:

That doesn't mean Kakashi's perception changed at all. He can still consider Kakuzu fast even after seeing KCM 2 Naruto.

Kakashi pulled off his Sharingan and was visibly sweating at P1 Lee's movements, even calling him fast, despite seeing Minato countless times.

"Fast" is subjective anyway. The issue is people on this forum believe that if character X calls character Y fast that means character Y must be faster than character Z, which isn't accurate.

It's just unquantifiable hype.

Madara calls A4 real fast but doesn't do the same for BM Naruto. Can we say he considered A4 faster than BM Naruto or Hashirama, who has constructs capable of tagging Juubi Jins?

This also applies to Gaara, he can still consider P1 Lee "inhuman" despite witnessing faster individuals.

The problem with this stance is that you are basing it on the assumption that the speed of Gai's movements can't be replicated by anyone else as you're taking his word hyperliterally.

He can, but it would therefore mean Kakuzu would be relative with KCM 2 Naruto. Kakashi wasn't praising Kakuzu as fast as Kakuzu's overall standing, he was praising Kakuzu as fast in comparison to him. Similar to how I can call a 5 year old fast in the context that he is 5, and call a 20 year old who is nearly as fast as me fast - the context is important. An in manga example if you don't agree with this is SPSM Naruto calling Kaguya fast, and kid naruto calling Zabuza fast - both are in comparison to him, but these versions of Naruto aren't the same for obvious reasons lol.

So in conclusion, praise works based on the current strength of the Shinobi. Zabuza is fast for kid Naruto and Kaguya is fast for SPSM Naruto when both are compared to each respective Naruto - doesn't mean there isn't a monstrous gap in speed between them given the large disparity in strength between the two Narutos, unless you want to be like Bob and argue Zabuza is Momoshiki level or something

Exactly the point with Kakashi and Lee - Kakashi considered Lee fast, but that doesn't make him comparable to Minato who we know is faster than Lee since he literally teleports instantly, and sources like Kishi stating his speed is unrivalled

Hence why i disagree it's unquantifiable. The context for Madara calling A4 fast is self explanatory, Ay is fast as a Shinobi, not fast in comparison to Madara who quite literally has the feats to blitz him instantly since he reacts to KCM2 >> KCM1 > Ay.

I view praise as literal unless it's debunked - Madara saying Hashirama can never be surpassed can be chalked off to him praising his bestie, and Madara himself literally debunking his own statement.

But the way a character can state someone is fast has two bearings
- That character is fast in comparison to them: Likely a result of that character showing relativity to them (Kakuzu and Kakashi)
- That character is faster than other Shinobi: A4 is faster than the normal average Shinobi

But this is unprovable and doesn't work fundamentally. Can we also say V2 A4 blew Madara's standards and expectations more than Hashirama who has constructs capable of tagging Juubito?

No, because we can actually disprove the argument of V2 >= Hashirama and apply the necessary context to Madara's statement that Ay is simply fast in the context of a Shinobi being fast, not in comparison to Hashirama or Madara who tag significantly faster characters

Especially given that Madara was jobbing against the Kage and viewed them as completely worthless jokes, especially the strongest of the lot who he previously dogwalked - Ohnoki also being significantly stronger than the others, and also being able to effortlessly react to an even faster version of Ay (V2 lightened Ay)

Madara also calls Tsunade strong - doesn't mean she hits as hard as SS since Madara never commentated on it, but notice how the specific context behind his praise there was a comparison to a fellow current Kage and other Shinobi?

That's not necessarily true either. Gaara saw Edo Madara who's physically fast enough to neg the same KCM2 flicker that Gai cucked down to, but didn't call inhumanly fast.

You may say Gaara called him godlike, but that was in reference to his Tengai Shinsei, not his physicals.

Gaara has no way to even gauge Madara's physicals since:

1. Madara held back and toyed with him (and the others) during their fight
2. The second Madara got serious he knocked Gaara unconscious

You misunderstood my point. I never implied Pain has superior durability. What I'm saying is that ''god'' reputation isn't necessarily better than ''inhuman'' hype. Pain has a ''god'' reputation, yet Naruto was shocked by A3, not by Pain.

I'm not even comparing their durability, just Naruto's reaction to their overall power in general.

I see.

Still, Pain's godlike reputation was in reference to his Rinnegan abilities which are unusual (If i remember correctly).

But all A3 was praised by is his durability, and based off Naruto's statements - a guy who has pulverised Pains in AP alone cucked down to A3's durability and called that strength beyond a human

So while the overall standing of Pain may be considered higher than A3 due to his godlike abilities with the Rinnegan - something A3 obviously doesn't have, the durability is a different story

Naruto's statement helps contextualise A3's most significant trait in his durability, and his godlike statement helps contextualise the incredible power of Pain's Rinnegan - both are supported by feats

If Gaara doesn't have to commentate on everything for us and you acknowledge that he saw faster characters without calling them inhuman, then the idea that he must consider Gai faster than anyone he has ever seen before no longer works. Using this logic, he doesn't have to comment on A4 for us to acknowledge him as faster than Gai or Lee, but he can call them inhuman if he wants to tell the audience they are fast. Just like Madara calls A4 fast but not BM Naruto or Juubito.

If Gaara saw faster individuals that he didn't comment on, then why only Juubito and BSM Naruto are faster than Gai, but not Ay4, Minato, and KCM 2 Naruto (who all have better speed hype than him)?

You said Gai could have blown his expectations more compared to the others, but the "others" include Juubito and BSM Naruto.

Because of that, Gai should be scaled above Juubito and BSM Naruto in combat speed too.

I explained why though - because characters do not have to constantly commentate on everything, and the context behind Gaara's commentary is he had the ability to do so since he literally spectated the battle and wasn't involved in the slightest - an opportunity that allows for someone to more commonly commentate.

Furthermore, has Gaara even seen Juubito or BSM Naruto's combat speed? Has he watched it?

I'm pretty sure the only time he ever saw them was when Naruto and Sasuke were exhausted and Obito was having an identity crisis and couldn't even formulate an attack - and instead focused on pulling out the Bijuu, which was his main priority

Technically speaking, Naruto's first display of speed that left Kisame more shocked than defibrillated body included a punch. Ay4's fastest punch is delivered with his flicker, that you consider faster than Gai's.

Don't think Minato has any that I know of.

Which is my point - their speed come's from their flicker, not their combat speed

Combat speed is exclusively your arm moving from point A to point B, your footwork is a totally different measurement involving your legs.

Ay's punch is delivered with his flicker, Gai's isn't - the distinction that's important to note.

I'm not mixing them.

The distinction between combat speed and travel speed doesn't work in this context.

First off, Gaara uses the word "movements" so it's impossible to tell whether he was referring to Gai's combat speed, travel speed, or both. Gai was using both his combat and travel speeds against Juudara. You can't isolate that interaction to combat speed alone.

Secondly, Gaara's reaction is a callback to his fight with Lee, in which Lee's travel speed was emphasized multiple times. [, , , , ] Coincidentally, the instance during which Gaara calls Lee inhuman presents the latter's travel speed as too fast for his sand too, not just his combat speed. [] Gai also dashed (travel speed) at Madara before Gaara called him inhuman. Since this is a callback to P1, Gaara was definitely referring to 7G's travel speed too.

Third, running and body flicker are movements. Both kicking (which is what Gai was doing) and body flicker involve the use of the legs. If A4 moves his legs faster than Gai's upon using his body flicker, he'd exceed the speed of Gai's kicks that Gaara called inhuman. When A4 uses his fastest punch, his combat speed would scale to his flicker since he is punching mid-flicker. Meaning that his combat speed would also exceed Gai's upon flickering.

The context specifically revolves around Gai's combat speed, the same panel images accompanying Gaara's statements are Gai throwing hands and kicks



They are both praising his Taijutsu skill, which is exactly what Gaara was talking about beforehand.


So the context is moreso correlated with his ability to attack in the seventh Gate, which is also what Minato praised - not his body flicker, and the images support this conclusion unlike CE Lee

It wouldn't because those are again different measurements. If you punch slower than me but run much faster than me, and you hit an enemy quicker than I do from a decent distance - that doesn't prove your combat speed is faster than mine. It proves your combat speed in accordance with your much greater movement speed is greater than my combat speed in accordance with my movement speed.

He was never blitzed by his war fan, what you describe is a counterattack made possible by Sharingan precognition.

What Obito , he's counterattacking Naruto. Sasuke the back at VotE. Naruto doesn't even call him fast or says he's unable to keep up, he's saying Sasuke is .

The clones were in a compromised position since they missed their attack and Obito attacked them before they recovered to a defensive one. Same happened with A3, Human Path and Tobirama.

When Naruto's not in a vulnerable position despite the fact that Obito tried to blindside Naruto with it.

Base Gai scaling to attacks that ''blitz'' KCM Naruto makes 0 sense when earlier on we see him ending up overwhelmed in 6G by even less V2 Jins it took to overcome a fatigued KCM Naruto.

What? Those are totally different.

Obito swung his Gunbai so fast Naruto couldn't even raise his hands to block it lol, Gai was able to block same Gunbai swing. Regardless of Sharingan precog - the same logic applies to Gai then as Obito didn't deactivate his sharingan, and Gai could block and react to an attack better than Naruto could.

The clones still had the ability to put their arms up and block - which they couldn't even do.Being in a compromised position doesn't mean you lose your ability to react to things, it means you lose your ability to employ an accurate defence.

Naruto blocked a totally different, slower Gunbai swing. Obito threw the fan at a much wider distance, more of a "round" throw - while the first blitz against the clone, it was far straighter. Straight attacks are faster than looping attacks as a straight movement has less distance to travel than a looping one.

Those V2 Jins tagged Gai with their tails/chakra arms, which are faster than their punches as per Naruto and Bee.

And Naruto wasn't blitzed because he overwhelmed with Jins, he was repeatedly being tagged by individual ones over and over and couldn't block their attacks - so while yes, he was overwhelmed, he still couldn't do shit against them individually. Gai could also tag Jins



The other factor you haven't mentioned in this comparison is Obito wasn't bloodlusted against Naruto - he wanted to capture him alive, so he was holding back, something he admits when Naruto goes KCM2, that he needs to start fighting like he wants to kill Naruto - the difference between fighting to capture and fighting to kill is extremely important, so much so that Obito needs to make the distinction



Against Gai, there is no reason for him to hold back - so the attacks against Gai are going to be faster than the attacks against Naruto even if they are from the same person/creature.

Characters' statements can't be used like that.

Again, Gaara called Madara godlike but not Juubito or the ISO.

Madara called A4 fast, not BM Naruto.

So Gaara doesn't have to commentate on A4 for A4's speed to be above Gai's, then.

You aren't explaining why they can't be used like that though - especially when i've given a plausible explanation backed up by the manga that characters assertions can be varied with the context that surrounds them, especially during moments

I addressed these issues above

to and right in . Gaara definitely saw that as he was facing that direction.

He saw the massive hole Juubito created, because he got down there.

.

Since the ISO extended its tails toward Juubito immediately after overpowering him in the final clash and Gaara appeared instantly on-panel afterward that means he witnessed the final clash as well.

He also seen , but didn't call him inhuman.

So he did see more than enough. But realistically, and bring him in that state is more than enough.

I don't see Gaara there when Juubito slams Naruto and Sasuke? Can you provide another scan showing he was facing towards them?

And as i explained - Gaara didn't have time to commentate, and an absence of evidence is still not evidence. He doesn't need to commentate on everything in order to validate his statements

No, the logic that 7G is > 8G would be yours, not mine.

Because he called 7G inhuman, not 8G.

That's what you are arguing though, not me.

You are making the claim his statement is invalid since he commentated on one thing and not another, not me.

Not sure Tobirama stomps Minato, but I do agree he is stronger.

I do agree Tobirama's speed is faster than Minato's but there's 0 evidence it's ''tiers'' faster. There's no evidence Minato is faster in flicker either, unless you believe Tobirama referred to his body flicker when he called him better, but it's also arguable he referred to his FTG.

Okay then ignoring the flicker, Tobirama perception blitzed KCM1 Naruto who can fight Obito without being perception blitzed, who can fight Minato almost dead even

A perception blitz is an enormous different, and it means Minato couldn't even fight Tobirama as he wouldn't be capable of reacting to his attacks

No, it wouldn't be inconsistent because Naruto already called Juubito's power beyond how he even imagined himself becoming.

The inconsistencies lie in Gaara's statements.

So? My point is still he never once praised Juudara but praised Juubito - so if you are making the argument that he needs to continuously commentate on certain events to validate them, is the fact he never commentated on Juudara's strength a reason to invalidate previous statements since he only praised Juubito?

What feats does he have to say he can tank Juubidama?

Juudara > Juubito > V3 Juubi > V1 Juubi who can facetank Juubidama

He wouldn't get scratched by it.

Ohnoki isn't thousands of years old.

Comparing an old persons age to an even older persons age doesn't address my argument.

Both of them are old, and both of them have been shown to be wrong.

Old age doesn't equal you being right.

By the same coin, Gaara would be wrong about Gai as well, because there are multiple statements and feats putting the individuals mentioned above him in speed. Just like Zetsu called Kirin inhuman despite witnessing the Founders fight each other and knowing individuals like Pain.

And i've already explained Zetsu can be talking about current reality and not accounting for the past.

Him calling Kirin inhuman doesn't contradict any of Pain's powers either, they are also beyond human comprehension especially CT.

Obito knowing about Koto doesn't mean Zetsu would as well. It's a reasonable assumption, but still an assumption. And even if I steelman it, why is Gaara reliable but Zetsu isn't?

Zetsu is literally Obito's info man and they are collaborating partners. Zetsu even states he analyses and studies everything.

I never said Zetsu isn't reliable at all either mind you, just that he isn't as accurate a source as people make out as he is directly wrong without any argument. Gaara's statement on Gai isn't contradicted

All of these examples can be used for Gaara's statement about Gai too, you know.

Can you explain why?

I gave explicit examples that contradict previous statements, can you give me something that contradicts Gai's 7G Taijutsu beyond any of the previous guys being contradicted?

Consider the argument i suggested at the bottom of my previous reply - it can also be in relation to his Taijutsu skill, the same way Lee is compared to SPSM Naruto

Gaara used the word "movements". If you're saying A4 and Naruto have faster movement speed, then aren't you saying they move faster than Gai in all areas?

No.

Gai's movements were revolving around his Taijutsu, Naruto and A4 are about movement speed.

So while the word movements is used, it's not all movements, but rather their specific movements being praised

On the fact that Gai's combat speed is within Kisame's mental reaction time while KCM1 and 2 flickers are way beyond it.

Flickers beyond what?

A holding back Gai who Kisame reacted to?

And why can't Kisame mentally react to those other flickers?

He doesn't have the blow the bombs with his fist, simply deflect them with his >>> SM Minato combat speed.

Parrying something doesn't equate to you scaling to it necessarily

You can redirect an attack while being much weaker than it

He didn't do it with physical strength.

He did it with speed. He used his body flicker, a display of speed. Gai's comment was ''so fast'', not ''so strong'' and Naruto was likened to Minato, who's known for his speed, not strength.

Yes, but speed, strength and mass all operate under the same equation

Naruto was strong enough to repel those Bijuudama's with his body

Kakashi thought it was his master who did that. So narratively Minato can replicate it, no matter how we try to rationalize it.

He can replicate it by redirecting them using S/T ninjutsu, not with his fists

Minato has fought with the likes of Bee and A4 who are hyper durable but still stalemated them multiple times. Portrayal matters more than how we think his AP works in this context.

Agreed

This happened long after the fight I'm talking about.

I'm referring to this instance, in which . If he wanted he could have finished all of them off before Naruto figured a way out.

They weren't fatigued here.

This doesn't make Madara look mmore impressive than Obito, given Obito also bitched down Gyuki, Gai was already fatigued from earlier and he blitzed KCM2 Naruto too

No, it's not. It may across as that but the idea is that you can't say BM Bee, BM Naruto and Gai were pressuring Madara in any way, shape or form just because he praised them, because Madara praises people far weaker than himself, and such was the case with the team he one-shotted with a Wooden Dragon, which is a fart next to his PS.

I never stated they pressured him though, just that Madara had more difficulties capturing them than he originally thought

Furthermore, he didn't one shot them with wooden dragon. Bee literally snapped out of it and Naruto destroyed it with a flicker

If anything, the fact a passed out Gai is fast enough to send Madara flying off the battlefield quicker than he can attack said Hirudora while Obito can react to a point blank Raikiri speaks volumes about who has the better reaction time

Bee was fatigued from being in BM for multiple chapters and already getting dicked down by Obito

He didn't just praised their full power. He praised their defenses, Mei's lava style and A4's teleportation too.

And then immediately after made fun of them and said Mei's Yoton is so pitiful he won't even absorb it and Ay needed to up his Raiton since Madara was reacting to it

I never implied that and I ain't a Gokage wanker either. Only stuff I wank are facts.

I never accused you of being one, i'm making a general statement that anyone who tried to argue that is wrong. No hate

It does. Because Madara praises people far weaker than himself.

Far weaker than him at full strength - which he needed to use his V5 against to survive.

He praised them because they legit showed a powerful display

This isn't true. Once the Uchiha Flame Barrier was activated they had his undivided attention.

How is activating a barrier and cancelling Kakashi's Kamui (which heavily taxes him anyway) a distraction or huge handicap?

It's a huge distraction because alongside a 4v1, in which for a large part of that fight he was trying to capture 2 of them alive - something that requires significantly more finesse as stated by Jiraiya, he had to guard the statue, meaning he was constantly on the defensive

Fighting a group of 4 people while defending something is much more difficult than fighting 4 people and not having to worry about protecting something else, especially because every time he took his eyes off one they would attack the statue (Bee and KCM2), and Kakashi having his perfect counter meant he couldn't even use his most significant power

Meaning Kakashi's strongest weapon is also countered.

No, no it's not.

Kakashi's strongest power is Kamui, which is still used against Obito in conjuction with the others because he uses the ability on objects to tag Obito

It has the exact same effect regardless, and Obito can't even use his phasing (his best weapon) while Kakashi can

Sure, but Kakashi is at a much bigger disadvantage because unlike Obito he can't spam it and a couple of uses will bleed his chakra reserve dry.

Kakashi can spam it, he only got tired trying to warp big things.

He uses it back to back to back in the WA and only has issues with larger objects, hell against Juudara he uses it like 4 times in a row - On Obito, on Minato, on Naruto AND on Madara

Zero drain.

This happened after the fight, not during. . The dude almost killed himself ensuring BM Naruto would hit Obito.

Yes, that was his last Kamui after spamming it previoiusly multiple times

You're confusing large chakra expenditure with exhaustion. Obito was spending large amounts of chakra but that doesn't mean he was exhausted. Throughout the entire fight he didn't exhibit a single sign of exhaustion and never once faltered. Kakashi on the other hand fell on the ground and could barely stand on his legs.

There's no proof the effect of the Rinnegan negatively affected his fighting capacity either.

Obito was still nerfed since he wasn't able to access the full result off his powers, and while not exhausted that doesn't mean he wasn't tired. It's even stated he can't fully control the Bijuu because of how much chakra it's using.

Obito's entire soul going insane 24/7 is quite literally a hindrance, i'm not even sure how you can argue otherwise.

He could barely handle the power of the Rinnegan as it was so powerful for his body and he was simultaneously using a shit ton of chakra to control the Bijuu

This point is also surprising, given you argued Kisame used 50% of his chakra despite zero evidence pointing towards that and not a single scan of Kisame being fatigued - yet when there's evidence of Obito being fatigued you are arguing that he isn't fatigued because he never showed a sign... despite Kisame also never showing signs of fatigue?

This means he has to weaken Obito to post-extraction levels, because that's the level Zetsu could take over his body.

Zetsu taking over his body post extraction doesn't mean that's the only level he can take over Obito's body at

The only form of control he had over Obito's body was with the seal on his heart.

No, Obito had lost the seal on his heart from Kakashi when Madara took over - he took over on the right side of Obito's body which Madara personally had tinkered with even without the seal as he explains to young Obito, allowing him to instantly pin his body with Rinnegan rods and control his chakra with a single handsign

There's no way in hell Zetsu's taking over Juubito's body when and resisted his control. Even if Zetsu could do that, Madara would have to weaken Juubito to the point he wouldn't be capable of dealing with Minato and Kakashi.

Obito had a mental amp and was able to overpower both Madara and Zetsu, and he was already making the signs beforehand anyway

And yes, i'm not arguing Madara isn't relative to him - my entire point is that he would be capable of weakening him, but arguing he could beat him based on his statement is ludicrous given Madara's horrific track record of predicting how fights would go

The guy is a total egomaniac and consistently overestimates himself while underestimating others.

Not when it comes to how his power compares to others.

Yes he is? That's the entire basis of my argument

He compares his power to Hashirama 3 seperate times... and is wrong 3 seperate times, despite both of them having an equal nerf and Madara gaining additional powers he never had when he was alive. In fact this might not even be accurate, given they have fought numerous other times and Madara most likely said the exact same thing to Hashirama over and over.

Arguing Madara isn't wrong when making power comparisons to other Shinobi makes no sense

That statement talks about VotE Madara, who had Kurama.

Yes, Madara with Kurama is = to Hashirama. Madara without Kurama is weaker

Madara was also fatigued and Hashirama only won because of a lucky clone feint.

Madara was fatigued from fighting Hashirama, Hashirama was INSTANTLY fatigued in that battle fighting Hashirama and Kurama who isn't a normal part of Madara's arsenal.

And him winning because of a "lucky" feint is him simply outsmarting and outplaying Madara. If Itachi clone feinted Kabuto, would you say that's just a "lucky" feint? No, Itachi legit outplayed and defeated him.

Madara himself states Hashirama is a greater Shinobi than him on numerous occasions. The implication is crystal cler

But in virtually all of these fights he lost by a razor thin margin. Hashirama was pushed to his limits.

Zero indication he lost by a razor thin margin

In the first flashback we see where Tobirama goes to kill Madara, Hashirama doesn't even have any significant wounds and it doesn't even confirm if he had SM.

Also, when did he say he'd beat Hashirama in their first fight and at VotE?

"All alone, he chose the path to revolt against Konoha." (DB4)
"In a battle to the death," (DB4)

Madara doesn't even have to be correct about beating Juubito for my premise to work. Pushing him to his limits is more than enough to put him on that pedestal of power.

Which is what i'm agreeing with - that he would be relative to Juubito

This isn't true.

Madara was heading towards the moon while both Naruto and Sasuke were busy with his clones and CTs.

This time they were forced into using PS and TBBs.

Neither fatebro could stop Madara from flying to the moon and casting IT, and Naruto would have lost if not for Sasuke's Susano'o protection.

That's not exactly ''stalemated by a single fatebro.''

Even before getting his 2nd Rinnegan , , and .

I'm talking about DR Juudara not RS Juudara.

His DR Limbo clones which are = to the original Madara were being stalemated by SPSM shadow clones who are less than the original Naruto.

Naruto saying they would take him down together isn't a sign of inferiority that many try to paint it out to be - he is literally just announcing him and Sasuke are going to kick his ass, as they have the same objective, and they will do it through their teamwork.

Naruto stating they need to work together is also quite funny, because he also included Sakura and Kakashi in that statement who were both worthless in that battle - he did the exact same in the Kaguya fight too, in which Sakura and Kakashi were only relevant because of Obito.

Naruto and Sasuke's performances against 2R Madara don't line up with this.

DR juudara's CT were negged, he ran away to cheese with IT and his limbo clones were getting stalemated by a single fatebro's shadow clones.

If Madara is physically only equal to Naruto... how does he deal with Sasuke, essentially another Naruto?

He would get curbstomped by ISO when the two of them fuse and they would beat him down

Yes.

He has better portrayal on account of being EMS Sasuke's superior, the former being depicted as BSM Naruto's equal. BSM Naruto is stronger than BM Naruto, who's Obito's benchmark according to Minato.

He isn't Obito's benchmark, he is portrayed as significantly weaker than Obito per Minato's statement

"To even have a hope of fighting him"

Without even using his full power, he had a far easier time with the team Obito faced.

No he didn't.

He didn't even face the whole team Obito fought and he didn't get hard countered by matchup like Obito did either.

Both of them negged Gyuki, meanwhile Madara got flung off the battlefield by a Gai who's "at his limits" per Gyuki, while the same Gai stated he couldn't fight Obito directly 1 on 1.

Furthermore, Naruto also couldn't fight Obito 1 on 1, yet could go behind Alive Humanoid SM Juudara and pound him into the dirt in KCM2

Obito himself considers himself a shell of Madara's power.

No, Obito pretending to be old Madara says he is a shell of his old self

That same Obito literally says he is suffering from extensive injuries and has zero power. That statement is not meant to be taken literally, and his persona is contradicted by Obito right before he talks to the Gokage.

He was also portrayed as the greater threat as a Juubi Jin than Obito, far greater.

His stronger as a Juubi Jin than Obito is because he has a stronger Juubi, since he has nearly all of Gyuki and half of Kurama - significantly more powerful Bijuu chakra than Obito possessed

You can't make a 1:1 comparison by stripping away their Juubi powers to argue Obito is weaker than Madara because of this.

The fact that Madara is confident in taking over an Obito who's a Juubi gap stronger than his White Mask self with Edo Hashirama's Sage Mode should tell you more than enough.

The same way Madara was confident he would take down Naruto... or Sasuke... or Zetsubito... or Hashirama x3.

I have zero reason to consider Madara's statements of power comparison valid when history shows he is incorrect, particularly accompanied by the fact he is as arrogant as it gets.

Not really, Madara's reaction to BM Naruto is much better than Obito's.

Naruto literally body flickers out of his wooden dragon and catches his Susanoo with one arm, Obito blitzes KCM2 with Mokuton.

Madara also matches up better with BM Naruto because of his DC, which Obito lacks in much more. Yet despite this, Naruto is still illadvised to fight Obito 1 on 1 and is stated to be weaker by both Obito and Gai, the former who considers Naruto "a fool" for rushing in alone.

Casting jutsu at the same isn't indication of speed equality. BM Bee and BM Naruto used TBBs at the same time but we both know who's faster.

The jutsu being the exact same speed and having the exact same AP does though.

It doesn't even make sense for Obito to react faster than Madara when the latter has EMS which offers a massive reaction amp over the MS.

Dojutsu isn't everything

Itachi has better reactions than EMS Sasuke despite having an inferior Dojutsu.

This is a false equivalence.

No it's not.

Shikaku's entire role in the story is to analyse the strength of people given he's arguably the smartest character in the series. Not only do we see this in previous arcs (him analysing Naruto's strength in comparison to Konoha and Pain's), but his entire speech then... was about analysing Madara and Obito

Yet despite already showcasing previously how he breaks down the strength between characters (does so with others in the WA like with Itachi), he makes no indication that Madara is stronger than Obito, such as "stronger Shinobi fight the stronger enemy Madara"

He actually equates them by saying they both possess powerful eyes and troublesome abilities without differentiation.

It's never stated the fight came down to a split-second difference. All we are told is that the fight was close, but the words ''split-second'' don't exist in the manga as far as that fight is concerned. It's just a term used on this forum to describe the small gap between them.

Your right, it's not split second it's instant, which is even worse

You can't quantify how much of a reaction amp Obito gets from going through puberty, we don't know if he gets one in the first place.

There's virtually zero way Obito couldn't have gotten a slight bit faster as it defies the laws of puberty.

A more accurate way of interpreting his strength is Minato's impression of his power. Even when Obito was 14, Minato considered sealing Kurama into Naruto in the hopes that he'll stop him. The same benchmark is used for White Mask Obito in the war arc.

Fair

Whatever improvement Obito's got didn't move him out of Minato's weight class.

Consider the Konan example - Obito can effortlessly react to his own warp speed several times over, yet Minato can't.

That alone is a hefty enough jump to say Obito's reaction speed greatly exceeds Minato's, which is all their fight comes down to.

Sure he would, but that would have been counted as an off-guard attack, so it wouldn't have been a fair win.

Obito's entire MO is to attack people off guard with Kamui - just like Minato.

He can replicate the sneaking behind characters at any time he wants due to Kamui, and he already would have had the advantage head on anyway.

It's fair and square.

Skills and trickery are part of his power.

would have been counted as an off-guard attack, so it wouldn't have been a fair win.

Both of them use these powers. it's unfair to count it for Minato, but then not for Obito to diminish his potential win.

If this power allows Minato to deal with people that he considers 50% Kurama level, then he is 50% Kurama level, and that's what the author portrays through Kakashi's impression of BM Naruto.

Naruto isn't 50 percent Kurama level though he's actually above it since being a Jin makes you stronger

And again, Minato beat him in a very iffy way already. Obito also isn't Kurama level, he only wins through genjutsu hax and hard countering him. It's a matchup thing.

We don't know if the fight would have gone any different, and besides, I wouldn't call it an ''error'', it's stated Obito had to end the fight quickly because of Kurama. Ergo, he was forced to do so as much as Minato was.

I mean it's directly stated he would have warped Minato had he not hesitated by both of them, and him needing to end the fight quickly makes it even more ludicrious that he hesitated in the first place. It makes zero sense and was an incredibly dumb mistake by Obito, who was also 14 and inexperienced which is yet another reason why his OM form is > YM.

There's no evidence he was weaker, and if he was, we don't by what extent. Whatever difference you think there is it's marginal because all versions of pre-JJ Obito are stated to require 50% Kurama's power to be messed with.

Why?

Addressed above.

Sure, and he needs BM to make up for it.

BM to potentially make up for it, or rather, to even FIGHT Obito, not beat him, not be on his level - to actually go head to head with the guy he needs BM

That's a pretty insane statement when it comes to scaling Obito.

Clashing doesn't prove it slowed down or affected the Hirudora in any capacity. Neither Kisame nor Gai pointed out any slowing down in their attacks.

Moreover, the idea that the shark bomb slowed down the Hirudora, which would have also reduced its power, undermines the context of that fight, that Hirudora countered Kisame's attack. Because in the end, both absorbing and slowing it down equals reducing the attack's effectiveness.

Two things colliding head on reduces the speed, of course it does? Them not pointing it out doesn't prove it didn't.

It doesn't undermine Hirudora, wouldn't that make Gai look even better? Holding. back and a slowed down Hirudora still incapped Kiame.

Actually, Kisame did physically react.

Look at the position of his arms , then .

In the first image his arms are fully extended horizontally. In the second images they are visibly moved down while his upper arm in the bottom image moved to a vertical position. These are 2 physical reactions

At the very least just before the Hirudora hits him his left arm doesn't appear extended anymore.

Fair, good observation

Makes Kisame look even better, and Madara at point blank range worse for not being able to intercept it with his V3...

Obviously not lol, but distance is an important factor too.

Sure, it does apply to Obito, but that doesn't he'd be affected by it, because unlike Kakashi he has a much larger chakra reserve and Hashirama cells to cushion the MS recoil.

If it applies to him wouldn't he be affected?

Losing any amount of chakra impacts your reaction and strength

I agree that it would be less than say Kakashi's since Obito's reserves are monstrous, but he still isn't operating at full capacity.

There's nothing taken out of context, Gyuki outright tells him not to decide who's stronger based on the number of tails. That's clearly an implication the rule doesn't work.

If it did, Gyuki wouldn't have been overpowered multiple times by Son Goku or rammed by Kokuo. He never looked stronger than those Bijuus at any point.

He outright tells Kurama to stop using that rule.

Gyuki says he personally dislikes that Kurama decides it based on tails, not that the rule is wrong. It's also worth noting that Shukaku hates Kurama because of that, and Kurama is so much stronger due to having more tails. Gyuki's "implication" is literally contradicted by him freaking out about how strong Kurama is, despite just saying moments ago not to use tails as an indicator of strength.



Kurama is actually smarter than people realise, him making the claim he is the strongest because of tails (and Gyuki second) shouldn't be ignored when it isn't contradicted, especially when Bijuu expert Kisame agrees Gyuki's chakra is beyond that of previous Bijuu and "deserving of being one less than the nine tails". There is zero way you can argue tails don't matter, Kisame's statement solidifies it.

Also, Gyuki was only overpowered when they got the jump on him and surprised him.



Look at what happens when they fight Gyuki head on, including Gyuki stating he would take on all 5 Bijuu and 2v1ing:



Gyuki was also injured and did that too, and ragdolled 5 and 3 tails with ease, and could physically restrain 4 tails for 2 entire chapters.

But that doesn't necessarily have to do with tails number.

Kurama has the most strength and the most chakra/potent chakra... and the most tails.

Kisame states 8 tails chakra is better than previous Bijuu and deserving of being one less than the strongest Bijuu.. who has the most tails, with 8 tails having the second most

Just because he can fire 4 TBBs doesn't mean he is stronger than the other Bijuu.

I didn't argue that's the reason, it's that he matched the speed and AP of Kurama as well as having similar reaction speed to BM Kurama too.

Similar durability too, plus his speed allowed him to catch a TBB from Kurama with his hand inside Naruto's plane while weakened and even blitz Kurama with his tentacles.

He actually didn't. When Son Goku attacked him it was a and he couldn't overpower him to get Naruto out of his mouth.

As shown above, he transformed directly in front of him out of nowhere and slammed him.

And he did overpower him, he pinned him with tentacles but couldn't reach his mouth.

He didn't rock anyone,.

Kokuo got sent flying, her getting up didn't mean she wasn't damaged.

Isobu did break out, but he was also blitzed by the tentacles and pinned down too.

No, it wouldn't, because Kisame's statement is limited to V2 output and chakra capacity.

Gyuki can have more potent chakra just fine, but his overall capacity could be smaller in BM compared to the other Bijuu, thus making up for the potency gap.

What are you using to base that interpretation on? Why would Bee have a smaller capacity in BM compared to the others?

Except his eyes not following it and , like . Or .

Dude hit a rock just like Sasuke hit the Samurai because their targets escaped their LoS.

Fair

He never says that. He says he may be capable of getting Minato if he predicts the kunai he'll teleport to.

That's not the equivalent of reacting to teleportation. It's simply trying to guess where Minato will teleport to.

Agreed

And he never managed to ever pull this off because we know they fought multiple times and Minato's face was still intact.

Agreed

I'll make a thread for it soon.

Tag me when you do, i'm interested in seeing it

Kisame's chakra capacity is Bijuu level, Bee's base capacity without Gyuki's isn't, so it's the exact opposite.

Assuming Bee and Gyuki don't have mixed chakra, which can be argued to be implied based on Gyuki saying Kisame can absorb his chakra from inside Bee when he drained him, but i'm fine with conceding this point

The question would be determining the potency of Bee's chakra in base, which would still be Bijuu level given he could outpower Bijuu level V2 Ay in base with lariat.

There's no evidence he looked over to the tree, he was still facing forward. That's a textbook illustration of someone escaping his line of sight, as it happened with Sasuke when A4 dodged Amaterasu, the perfect representation of a full blitz flavored by Karin's comment about his inability to keep up.

A4 looking to the left doesn't prove he was looking at the tree, he could have looked at the kunai marker Minato threw. Even if he looked to the tree doesn't prove he reacted because if he looked at the tree after Minato already left his field of vision it's still a blitz. It's no different than Sasuke looking behind him after he got blitzed.

The only thing he's shown capable of reacting to is Minato's striking speed.

The thing is, him not knowing where Minato immediately is isn't a blitz because Minato straight up teleports and dissapears - you can't track it, even if you are way faster than him because he quite literally ceases to exist, unlike normal Shunshin which only gives off an appearance based on your ability to comprehend someones movements, based on your strength level.

To be fair, you raise a valid interpretation in that it's impossible to gauge where he was looking at. I'll concede that point.

If anything though, it seems he didn't even notice Minato's striking speed or that he was behind him either. He wasn't even looking at him or had any idea what was going on.

Reacting to someone disappearing means you are reacting to their disappearance, not to their speed.

, didn't change the fact he was blitzed.

Fair, I agree.

Because if that was the case it wouldn't have made any sense for him to call Gai inhuman after witnessing BSM Naruto, Juubito, and BM Minato.

Or he could have just been impressed by Gai's striking speed moreso than others.

But Gaara also didn't see Gai in years, so this only strengthens Kisame's reaction putting Naruto as the fastest person he's ever dealt with before if we use this logic.

Assuming Kisame was calling Naruto fast compared to everyone else, and not just shocked Naruto was fast - since he was a weak squirt when they met beforehand.

Yes, Bee uses the word ''teleportation jutsu'' which also refers to body flicker. So it's not mandatory for Naruto's first flicker to be compared to FTG. Only when he dodged A4 is he likened to Minato's FTG.

Okay, so how do you view the KCM2 and KCM1 comparison in their flicker? Like obviously KCM2 is faster, but the comparison is to the same person.

So KCM1 = Minato's BF, KCM2 = FTG?

Fair.

Good observation.

Good for you, not so good for me lol

I don't necessarily view it one way or another. I'm simply saying that the people claiming Gai can intercept Naruto's flicker with his combat speed must prove his combat speed is fast enough for that.

Fair

Above V1 combat speeds by an unquantifiable margin.

Do you think in a Taijutsu match Gai would beat KCM1?

 

[Leaf Hurricane]

Damn.. Did Guy slap you infront of your friends or something ?

 

[Aegon Targaryen]

Damn.. Did Guy slap you infront of your friends or something ?

 

[Monarch]

Damn.. Did Guy slap you infront of your friends or something ?

He tried, but ended up like this:







In the meantime, I'll be making another thread in which I'll explain how Kisame w/Samehada would have beaten Gai using feats and portrayal. Stay tuned @Lyren @Sleepless
That's me slapping you on the Battledome Arena.

 

[Leaf Hurricane]

He tried, but ended up like this:







In the meantime, I'll be making another thread in which I'll explain how Kisame w/Samehada would have beaten Gai using feats and portrayal. Stay tuned @Lyren @Sleepless

That's me slapping you on the Battledome Arena.

You and your hypothetical 'analysis' don't scare me.. I've been here when Sage light was active.

 

[Sleepless]

In the meantime, I'll be making another thread in which I'll explain how Kisame w/Samehada would have beaten Gai using feats and portrayal. Stay tuned @Lyren @Sleepless