Full extent Tsukuyomi is unbreakable

Asura barracuda

Weakness....is the original Sin 🌹
The time it came out is irrelevant. Timing is not justification. The reason is came out is irrelevant. All the novels came out for the same reason: expansion of the story.

Neither of these rebuke the fact that the novels are not canon. They are merely separate licensed works to further expand the world of Naruto. Not everyone cares about "canon". Most readers just want good and realistic stories to read about their favorite characters.

I'm sorry but in which universe did the link you posted say that the story is non canon?

I read it, Which universe did he say the story is non canon and holds no barring on the story?


Sasuke was not thinking back to Tsukuyomi only. He says Itachi used every Mangekyou technique he had available, and then proceeds to think back to Itachi using both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. It doesn't mean Tsukuyomi itself would have been able to kill Sasuke by itself. Even Obito states Itachi had to push Sasuke to the edge, meaning using a vast reserve of his current power, unhealthy he might be.

Right, so Obito states this.

"If Itachi had wanted, you most certainly would be dead"

"He was already aware of everything Sasuke, your contingencies were already taken into consideration"

"He had to push you to the edge".


So everything Itachi did was all so he could stress Sasuke, which is apparently verys easy.

Itachis 3Tomoe Sharingan Jutsu even on his deathbed proved to be better than Sasukes eyes.


And you try to deny that Itachi didn't hold back his MS abilities.

But we see Itachi do this on screen.

He kept on spawning Amateratsu besides Sasuke instead of atop him directly.

We see Itachi stop the flames.

And In the Tsukuyomi battle, we see that Zetsu can see Sasukes movements in the real world WHILE Tsukuyomi is ongoing.

In what realm does everything here show you that Itachi had any lethal intention when fighting Sasuke?

He even took a shuriken to the leg on purpose which was the very thing that made Zetsu think something was wrong because he knows Itachi should have dodged it.

Sasuke never achieved anything in that Battle that wasn't allowed or gifted to him by Itachi.

Obito flat out states this, Sasuke played his part very well and danced to Itachis tune.

Seriously where is Sasukes legit achievement during this battle at all. That you wanna salvage?




Danzou is just like Kakashi. Not an Uchiha. Using someone like Kakashi doesn't help your case. Time manipulation would have been effective on him. So, it doesn't matter what he thinks.

Ah yes, because being an Uchiha is the only way you have knowledge on their capabilities and weaknesses.

And it's not like Danzo learned and studied these guys for decades, has way more knowledge than Sasuke on his clans true potential.

And it's not like Obito too didn't agree with Danzo when he called Sasukes Genjutsu weak.

Atlas Obito isn't Sasuke is possibly what you'll say so maybe he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Sure thing, whatever floats your boat.


I hope this is a joke. Obviously Tsukuyomi is going to work against a prepubescent, unskilled Sasuke with no Sharingan development.

I'm sorry but what do you mean unskilled with no Sharingan development?

What exactly are you talking about?

What does age have to do with Sharingan mastery?

Or did we not see that Sasuke had mad level mastered over his Sharingan, already had training from Kakashi.

Chunin exam feats are there for you.

Unskilled?

Is this some pathetic attempt at denying the genius Sasuke was at this stage in life?

And is the point here not that Sasuke is an Uchiha?

First hand experience as a non-Uchiha. He knows full well, that as a non-Uchiha, Tsukuyomi cannot be beaten. That's it. That's the only first-hand experience he has.

Sure thing indeed, Kakashis words still hold more weight than anyone else's.




And you can't prove it was because Itachi held back. As I said, the claim it was due to holding back is no more valid than the claim that he didn't use it because it would have been useless against Sasuke.

Sure thing man.

The one thing the manga makes clear is that Itachi held back.

The one thing Obito makes clear is that Itachi held back and played Sasuke like a puppet.

The one thing the manga makes clear with Sasukes mental breakdown over the Tsukuyomi and Amateratsu experience is him realising Obitos words.

Sasuke even has a mental breakdown on this for you, even he doesn't believe it.

But sure thing man, the dude who's genjutsu skilss is weaker than Deathbed Itachi's 3T genjutsu is the one who broke Tsukuyomi.


Sure thing indeed.




I hope this, too, is a joke. Kakashi does not take precedence over Itachi. He does not know more than Itachi does about Itachi's own technique. The guy literally says Tsukuyomi can probably be beaten by his Sharingan and stares right into Itachi's eyes, only to be corrected by Itachi and get defeated by Tsukuyomi

Oh wow, Kakashi trusts that he will be able to hold on since Sharingan provides massive resistance and even Itachi acknowledges that Kakashi was on the right path in thinking that.

But Itachi just showed him more power than he imagined.

Kakashi, the dude who has witnessed Itachis power directly very well knows his stuff.

He's not taking precedence over Itachi, this is what Shippuden states.

Part 1 Itachi is a massive liar, nothing he said from begginning till the end has a single ounce of truth.

And Itachi was right before Kakashis eyes when he heard Kakashi talk about his abilities, I heard no single rebuttal at all.

But sure thing, Kakashi was wrong when not even Itachi said he was wrong this time.

Sure thing man.
 

Callen

Well-Known Member
Well thats kinda what genjutsu does, control people.
living slaves = human batteries. 🔋

Never said she didn't. What I'm saying is it wasn't treated like a big deal like it was with Sasuke.
Tsukuyomi wasn't the only attack Sasuke sustained. He becomes his punching bag.

I think Kakashi would have healed on his own.
If Tsukuyomi were a physical attack.

And broke it :hehee
No, he didn't. The Hachibi-Jinnchuiriki broke out of the after-effects of the genjutsu rather than the actual genjutsu.
 

J★J♥

Vento Aureo
living slaves = human batteries. 🔋


Tsukuyomi wasn't the only attack Sasuke sustained. He becomes his punching bag.


If Tsukuyomi were a physical attack.


No, he didn't. The Hachibi-Jinnchuiriki broke out of the after-effects of the genjutsu rather than the actual genjutsu.
What the fuck is after effects of the genjutsu ?
 

Charisma

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry but in which universe did the link you posted say that the story is non canon?

I read it, Which universe did he say the story is non canon and holds no barring on the story?
The universe in which the author states the original manga is the only truth in response to whether or not the novels are canon. Not sure how much more clear that can be.

Right, so Obito states this.

"If Itachi had wanted, you most certainly would be dead"

"He was already aware of everything Sasuke, your contingencies were already taken into consideration"

"He had to push you to the edge".


So everything Itachi did was all so he could stress Sasuke, which is apparently verys easy.
None of this means that any one, single thing Itachi did could kill Sasuke. It does not mean Amaterasu guarantees victory. It does not mean Tsukuyomi guarantees victory. The only thing it means is that if Itachi tried completely, he'd have won. You're actually providing evidence against yourself by saying Itachi knew Sasuke had contingencies. That doesn't mean Itachi could get around them, it just means Itachi knew Sasuke would survive them. You're saying Itachi knew Sasuke would counter Amaterasu. You're saying Itachi knew Sasuke would counter Tsukuyomi. I hope you're aware that's only aiding my argument.

Itachis 3Tomoe Sharingan Jutsu even on his deathbed proved to be better than Sasukes eyes.
No idea where you got this. They stalemated in visual genjutsu and the 3rd Databook, on multiple occasions, refers to Sasuke's mastery of his eyes. Such mastery, stated by Zetsu and the Databook, even being the reason for his ability to break out of Tsukuyomi.

And you try to deny that Itachi didn't hold back his MS abilities.

But we see Itachi do this on screen.

He kept on spawning Amateratsu besides Sasuke instead of atop him directly.
What? Amaterasu is not actually instant. It takes time to follow. This point doesn't even matter because the flames did reach Sasuke in any event, and the time it took to reach him didn't help Sasuke at all. Oral Rebirth was activated after he was doused in them.

We see Itachi stop the flames.
Which still doesn't matter. Even if Itachi decided to spawn even more flames, Sasuke had already countered the technique and was in the building. This isn't a case of holding back, because going all-out with Amaterasu means nothing to someone who has already countered it. You already admitted Itachi knew Sasuke could counter it.

And In the Tsukuyomi battle, we see that Zetsu can see Sasukes movements in the real world WHILE Tsukuyomi is ongoing.
This doesn't make sense if you mean it literally. Sasuke did not move exactly as he did during the genjutsu. We can easily tell this by Sasuke's state (no curse mark) and stance afterwards as compared to the end of the genjutsu.

Regardless of even that, what's your point? We also see that Kurenai and Asuma saw Kakashi collapse during Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi didn't end until Kakashi was already on the ground, meaning they saw (heard) him falling while under Tsukuyomi. They saw Kakashi fall, and Zetsu saw Sasuke quiver. They both saw the victim experience the genjutsu, that's it. There's no actual evidence, literally none at all, that the time Zetsu experienced in reality was the same as the genjutsu. For all you know, Itachi could very well have manipulated time.

He even took a shuriken to the leg on purpose which was the very thing that made Zetsu think something was wrong because he knows Itachi should have dodged it.
That doesn't at all mean it was on purpose. What? The manga does not at all even hint that Itachi took that specific hit to make people think he was sick, or to appear weaker on purpose. The narrative tells us that he took the hit because he couldn't dodge due to sickness. That was the reason (cause), not the outcome (effect).

Sasuke never achieved anything in that Battle that wasn't allowed or gifted to him by Itachi.

Obito flat out states this, Sasuke played his part very well and danced to Itachis tune.

Seriously where is Sasukes legit achievement during this battle at all. That you wanna salvage?
This is just going too far with it. Itachi orchestrated the battle, but not every single detail. Naruto did the same with Delta, but that doesn't mean he controlled every single variable. The Databook, a source with no bias, outright tells us that Sasuke made legit achievements in that fight. Character statements or assumptions don't matter when we're comparing it to the Databook's statements about historical facts.

Ah yes, because being an Uchiha is the only way you have knowledge on their capabilities and weaknesses.

And it's not like Danzo learned and studied these guys for decades, has way more knowledge than Sasuke on his clans true potential.

And it's not like Obito too didn't agree with Danzo when he called Sasukes Genjutsu weak.

Atlas Obito isn't Sasuke is possibly what you'll say so maybe he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Sure thing, whatever floats your boat.
That was not the point I made at all. The point was that it doesn't matter what knowledge Danzou has on Tsukuyomi. It doesn't matter how much he studies it. He cannot counter it without being an Uchiha. Itachi says this, plain and clear. Tsukuyomi in general, and thus the time manipulation, is significant because Danzou can't counter it no matter how many Sharingan he has.

I'm sorry but what do you mean unskilled with no Sharingan development?

What exactly are you talking about?

What does age have to do with Sharingan mastery?

Or did we not see that Sasuke had mad level mastered over his Sharingan, already had training from Kakashi.

Chunin exam feats are there for you.

Unskilled?

Is this some pathetic attempt at denying the genius Sasuke was at this stage in life?
I thought you were referring to Sasuke before the beginning of the story. Even still, yes, my point stands. Sasuke has no training in the Sharingan at this point, let alone countering genjutsu with it. He cannot be a master of the Sharingan if he doesn't even have all the tomoe.

And is the point here not that Sasuke is an Uchiha?
Not exactly. You need to have the Sharingan and be an Uchiha, yes. But as Zetsu and the Databook both tell us, you also need sufficient mastery of the Sharingan to break it. The Sharingan, a tool, is only as good as its user can make it. Itachi could have a twin, but the twin isn't breaking Tsukuyomi if he only has one tomoe.

Sure thing man.

The one thing the manga makes clear is that Itachi held back.

The one thing Obito makes clear is that Itachi held back and played Sasuke like a puppet.

The one thing the manga makes clear with Sasukes mental breakdown over the Tsukuyomi and Amateratsu experience is him realising Obitos words.

Sasuke even has a mental breakdown on this for you, even he doesn't believe it.

But sure thing man, the dude who's genjutsu skilss is weaker than Deathbed Itachi's 3T genjutsu is the one who broke Tsukuyomi.
Itachi holding back does not mean he can one-shot Sasuke. The correlation does not exist. As you have already said yourself, Itachi knew Sasuke could counter his techniques.

Oh wow, Kakashi trusts that he will be able to hold on since Sharingan provides massive resistance and even Itachi acknowledges that Kakashi was on the right path in thinking that.

But Itachi just showed him more power than he imagined.

Kakashi, the dude who has witnessed Itachis power directly very well knows his stuff.

He's not taking precedence over Itachi, this is what Shippuden states.

Part 1 Itachi is a massive liar, nothing he said from begginning till the end has a single ounce of truth.

And Itachi was right before Kakashis eyes when he heard Kakashi talk about his abilities, I heard no single rebuttal at all.

But sure thing, Kakashi was wrong when not even Itachi said he was wrong this time.

Sure thing man.
This is a point you absolutely have no stake in. Itachi only has reason to lie about his alignment. He has no reason to lie about how his technique works. Saying only Uchiha can counter it doesn't help Kakashi out. It doesn't do a single thing to help hide his identity or truth.

Kakashi's hyperbolic statement meant for the general (non-Uchiha) clearly contradicts Itachi's own. Itachi himself says every technique has a weakness. By disregarding Itachi literally telling you what Tsukuyomi's weakness is, and by claiming it doesn't have one, you are directly arguing against Itachi's wisdom as a character and the manga as a truth.

And Itachi was right before Kakashis eyes when he heard Kakashi talk about his abilities, I heard no single rebuttal at all.
I don't know what chapter Kakashi says Tsukuyomi is unbeatable, but I'm quite certain Itachi was not there for it.
 

Asura barracuda

Weakness....is the original Sin 🌹
The universe in which the author states the original manga is the only truth in response to whether or not the novels are canon. Not sure how much more clear that can be.
.
Huh?

He said he had fun with his work and that the readers should enjoy it as they like.

Interpret it as they like because the naruto universe is being expanded.

It's a fucking novel


Freaking imagination is all it takes.

Nowhere did he state it meant or held no ground with the manga, it's supposed to expand on what the manga can't.




of this means that any one, single thing Itachi did could kill Sasuke. It does not mean Amaterasu guarantees victory. It does not mean Tsukuyomi guarantees victory. The only thing it means is that if Itachi tried completely, he'd have won. You're actually providing evidence against yourself by saying Itachi knew Sasuke had contingencies. That doesn't mean Itachi could get around them, it just means Itachi knew Sasuke would survive them. You're saying Itachi knew Sasuke would counter Amaterasu. You're saying Itachi knew Sasuke would counter Tsukuyomi. I hope you're aware that's only aiding my argument.

Right, it does not mean it guaranteed victory, yet those were the two scenes the manga chose to Highland make Sasuke have a mental breakdown over right?

Because it doesn't mean anything at all, it's quite useless indeed.

Sure thing man.


And Obito said Sasukes contingencies were already a part of Itachi's contingencies.

So your because Itachi knew them doesn't mean he could counter them is whack.



No idea where you got this. They stalemated in visual genjutsu and the 3rd Databook, on multiple occasions, refers to Sasuke's mastery of his eyes. Such mastery, stated by Zetsu and the Databook, even being the reason for his ability to break out of Tsukuyomi.

If your idea of a stalemate is Itachi making Sasuke look like a fool.

Drag out genjutsu and tell Sasuke a fake history of Madara Uchiha so he can manipulate and lie to Sasuke even more.

Then also rub it in Sasukes face when he said he could see through his genjutsu.

Just laughing at what Sasuke said then sure man, that was an absolute stalemate instead of Sasuke being a puppet.


And I'm guessing you'll forget that Obito said Sasuke never saw through Itachis eyes at all, nor a single one of his illusions huh.


Sasuke stalemated man, Sasuke absolutely stalemated indeed.


This doesn't make sense if you mean it literally. Sasuke did not move exactly as he did during the genjutsu. We can easily tell this by Sasuke's state (no curse mark) and stance afterwards as compared to the end of the genjutsu.

Regardless of even that, what's your point? We also see that Kurenai and Asuma saw Kakashi collapse during Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi didn't end until Kakashi was already on the ground, meaning they saw (heard) him falling while under Tsukuyomi. They saw Kakashi fall, and Zetsu saw Sasuke quiver. They both saw the victim experience the genjutsu, that's it. There's no actual evidence, literally none at all, that the time Zetsu experienced in reality was the same as the genjutsu. For all you know, Itachi could very well have manipulated time.

Dude what are you talking about?

Asuma said Kakashi was talking then suddenly he was down on his knees that same moment and asking what happened to him?

Kakashi didn't fall on his knees during Tsukuyomi, he fell after the 3 day torture ended.

Check the manga again before making such a wrong statement.


Meanwhile Sasuke held his hand over his eyes in the real world and in the genjutsu plane.

Zetsu sees Sasukes hand over his eyes and exclaims.

The illusion breaks and we see that Sasuke indeed had his hand over his eyes before it was broken.

Then we see Sasuke fall to his knees after this too.

There was no single time dilation attempted on Itachis part at all.






That doesn't at all mean it was on purpose. What? The manga does not at all even hint that Itachi took that specific hit to make people think he was sick, or to appear weaker on purpose. The narrative tells us that he took the hit because he couldn't dodge due to sickness. That was the reason

Dude Itachi dodged a point blank surprise Chidori attack and was able to dodge it point blank.

This was in a more crippled state, a crippled leg and an even more crippled body.

The fact that you think somehow he could dodge this at point blank even when it's a surprise attack and he couldn't dodge a big ass shuriken with a more healthier state is beyond me really.


This is just going too far with it. Itachi orchestrated the battle, but not every single detail. Naruto did the same with Delta, but that doesn't mean he controlled every single variable. The Databook, a source with no bias, outright tells us that Sasuke made legit achievements in that fight. Character statements or assumptions don't matter when we're comparing it to the Databook's statements about historical facts.

Naruto didn't come to anywhere doing what Itachi did with Sasuke.

Naruto actually changed plans mid battle, went all out as he stated and then got washed, got stepped on and stabbed.

Himawari almost died if not for Kawaki.


Don't even try making the same comparison at all.


And no, Obito stated Itachi led the whole thing.

Sasuke played his part perfectly as Itachi expected.


"From the very beginning right to the very end, even pretending to still wanting your eyes was all planned by him"


Sasuke Legit has no one real victory in that fight, he was gifted that win on a silver platter.





That was not the point I made at all. The point was that it doesn't matter what knowledge Danzou has on Tsukuyomi. It doesn't matter how much he studies it. He cannot counter it without being an Uchiha. Itachi says this, plain and clear. Tsukuyomi in general, and thus the time manipulation, is significant because Danzou can't counter it no matter how many Sharingan he has.

Danzo still has way more knowledge than Sasuke tho.
:lbj

Obito also agrees with Danzo tho that Sasukes Genjutsu was weak, and that's his MS Genjutsu being referred to here, the MS.

:lbj



I thought you were referring to Sasuke before the beginning of the story. Even still, yes, my point stands. Sasuke has no training in the Sharingan at this point, let alone countering genjutsu with it. He cannot be a master of the Sharingan if he doesn't even have all the tomoe.

But he was a master tho, and a genius one at that.

He wasn't some beginner noob, he was fighting Jinchuriki and Sannin with this same two tomoe.







Itachi holding back does not mean he can one-shot Sasuke. The correlation does not exist. As you have already said yourself, Itachi knew Sasuke could counter his techniques.

This wasn't even in the least bit true.

Sasuke is the fool who went into battle without knowing Itachis true capabilities.

And Itachi for the sake of his plan decided to plan around Sasukes contingencies for the sole purpose of dragging the fight out so he can seal Orochimaru and at the same time make it seem convincing that Sasuke was winning or that he could win at all.


Sasuke Legit was the same person who thought he could kill itachi just because he had Chidori.

Sasukes always been delusional and never had the slightest true grasp of Itachis capabilities.

Itachi even insults Sasuke for his delusions during the fight.


This is a point you absolutely have no stake in. Itachi only has reason to lie about his alignment. He has no reason to lie about how his technique works. Saying only Uchiha can counter it doesn't help Kakashi out. It doesn't do a single thing to help hide his identity or truth.

Wait a minute, what do mean Itachi has no reason to lie about his power when this is the exact same thing he did in part 1?

Didn't he lie that Jiraya was someone who could kill him?

Didn't he say it doesn't matter if the Akatsuki as a whole brings back up it won't change the outcome?

He even still lied to Sasukes face.

Why in any way would Itachi suddenly expose his Technique and for some reason tell Kakashi who could defeat him?

Is Kakashi not Sasukes tutor and
someone who could tell Sasuke this?

Was Itachis whole purpose not to manipulate and lie during part 1?


I don't know what chapter Kakashi says Tsukuyomi is unbeatable, but I'm quite certain Itachi was not there for it.

This was during the IA arc.

Itachis clone was standing right before Kakashi, Naruto, Sakura and Chiyo.

Then Kakashi begun his exposition right in front of Itachi.


But yet no rebuttal, even though Uchiha as a whole were being mentioned and talked about here too.
 

WorldsStrongest

Man of Miracles
no it isnt

Sasuke flat out broke it on panel and its confirmed in the DBs he faced "the eternal genjutsu" of Tsukuyomi when he did so

Its also beyond cope to suggest Sasuke, who has lived through Tsukuyomis time dilation, would miss Itachi just not using it

Stay in denial tho
 

Symmetry

Time for the Climax! 🦋
Sasuke flat out broke it on panel and its confirmed in the DBs he faced "the eternal genjutsu" of Tsukuyomi when he did so




What part of these scans were unclear?


the eternal genjutsu" of Tsukuyomi when he did so
Okay?

This doesn’t prove that Itachi didn’t just let him break out, which makes more sense with the above scans as Obito legit says he planned everything in advance and held back the entire time


Legit zero reason to assume Itachi went full force with Tsukuyomi, and there’s also zero reason to assume Sasuke would be able to tell if Itachi held back its power to let Sasuke break through when Sasuke didn’t see that Itachi held back all the other times in the fight

Stay in denial tho
Back at ya

:yousmart
 

WorldsStrongest

Man of Miracles
What part of these scans were unclear?
You show me where in any of my post I spoke against Itachis intent being to lose and then maybe you can explain to me what you thought those scvans accomplished relative to my post
Okay?

This doesn’t prove that Itachi didn’t just let him break out
Neither does anything in the manga prove Sasuke didnt face a full force Tsukuyomi

Tho lots in the manga and DB indicate he did
Obito legit says he planned everything in advance and held back the entire time
And Sasuke still pushed Itachi further than he thought possible regardless of Itachis plans

He openly admits this

Itachi planning to lose to Sasuke is not synonymous with everything in the exchange being according to Itachis intent

The exact opposite is the truth in fact

And again, Itachi has never in his entire life tried to kill Sasuke. But hes hit him with a full force Tsukuyomi regardless :oldshrug

"Itachis intent" is not a counter argument to Sasuke breaking a full force Tsukuyomi

We have seen Itachi use FP Tsukuyomi in all its glory no less than twice and both targets survived
Legit zero reason to assume Itachi went full force with Tsukuyomi
Actually its the opposite

Theres 0 reason to assume he held back

It has been foreshadowed legit since Tsukuyomis introduction that Sasuke would face and defeat it, in particular the version he used on kakashi

Itachi has also blatantly used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke in the past and Sasuke is familiar with the application of its time dilation. And again, weve seen Itachi use Tsukuyomi at full power and its target live anyway.

Add to all of this, we see Itachis POV after the Tsukuyomi and see hes clearly affected greatly by the backlash of it. Its also visibly obvious to everyone watching the techniques flop severely affects him. You can argue Itachi faked the latter, but youd have to be on top shelf cope to argue Itachis lies are so good he can foll the reader themselves when they are seeing through Itachis own eyes.

4th wall awareness Itachi confirmed?

Yall are also arguing now that Sasukes head and shoulders more skilled in general and knowledgeable regarding Sharingan genjutsu, coupled with his Tsukuyomi experience, and still would miss something as obvious and powerful as Tsukuyomis key defining aspect?

Sincerely?

Like I said bruh

Denial
there’s also zero reason to assume Sasuke would be able to tell if Itachi held back its power
Except Sasukes own experience with the technique in the past you mean
Back at ya
Cute
 

Asura barracuda

Weakness....is the original Sin 🌹
Neither does anything in the manga prove Sasuke didnt face a full force Tsukuyomi

Tho lots in the manga and DB indicate he did

The manga does prove this to you by having Zetsu witness and follow Sasuke actually moving in the real world and covering his eyes in pain.

You'll tell me when Hebi Sasuke starts moving at multiple times the speed of light.




And Sasuke still pushed Itachi further than he thought possible regardless of Itachis plans

He openly admits this

Which part of "EVERYTHING that happened in that Battle Itachi had carefully set up"

"Your contingencies were already a part of his"

"Diverting your attention by wanting to steal your eyes, even right till the very end was all planned by him"

"You never saw through Itachis eyes, nor a single one of his illusions"


Show me which part of this statement makes it confusing for you that Sasuke played exactly how Itachi had wanted.

Exceeded which expectations when and where?

What did Sasuke achieve that wasn't planned in that Battle?

Please point it to me?
 

New Folder

Well-Known Member
didn't Academy-Sasuke tank this shit btw? :jesuschrist

P1 Kakashi was just a B, as Tsunade said, to be defeated by a fodder the likes of itachi. :oldshrug
he couldn't handle something that Academy-student Sasuke managed... :V
 

Aegon Targaryen

The ''King'' of Inventors
@Troyse22 Thanks for the rep! I never said Worlds's arguments were all good, I already disagreed with him in this very thread (I just didn't bother engaging him as that always goes nowhere). I do agree that Tsukuyomi was at least as strong as when Itachi used it on Kid Sasuke, however, which IMO is far more reasonable than the converse and doesn't contradict Obito at all. I'm gonna rep you back though.
 

Ejenku

Zero_Smoke
Anyone under or around sick/edo itachis levels are dying if caught in MS genjutsu 1on1. But itachi isnt beating founder or god level characters with it. They may take some mental fatigue but thats it.
 

Serene Grace

You're gonna carry that weight
Anyone with a superior dojutsu to MS would neg diff it probably(as Itachi and the DB suggested). I’d say at about god tier id be NLF for you to argue it would work on them(assuming they don’t already have a dojutsu superior to the MS)
 

Symmetry

Time for the Climax! 🦋
and then maybe you can explain to me what you thought those scvans accomplished relative to my post
Because you made the assumption that Itachi went all out with Tsukuyomi, since if he didn’t that legit crippled your entire point about Sasuke breaking out of it

Was honestly so simple I don’t really feel it warranted explanation, it was rather self evident

Neither does anything in the manga prove Sasuke didnt face a full force Tsukuyomi
Except for it being stated Itachi didn’t have KI & was holding back the entire time? Obito even specifies that even when he used the MS it was ultimately to lose the fight, which in turns mean Itachi would want Sasuke to break his Tsukuyomi

No reason to assume an Itachi who wanted to lose went full force with Tsukuyomi, the fact that we know he was trying to lose means it’s far more likely he held back the power of his attacks

You’d need some pretty good evidence as to why this isn’t the case

:kanyeshrug

with everything in the exchange being according to Itachis intent
That’s quite literally what Obito says though


At the very least “Everything that occurred during that battle, Itachi had carefully se up” would at bare minimum mean everything that occurred from Itachi’s side, AKA his own attacks and their results, including Tsukuyomi & Amaterasu, was planned.

But hes hit him with a full force Tsukuyomi regardless :oldshrug

"Itachis intent" is not a counter argument to Sasuke breaking a full force Tsukuyomi
Itachi wants his Tsukuyomi to be broken out of so he can use, and somehow that doesn’t conflict with him using a full force Tsukuyomi?

:confusedjr

Proof Itachi knew Sasuke wouldn’t lose to a Tsukuyomi and thus stopping Itachi from his suicide plan?

There’s quite literally zero reason for Itachi, who is trying to lose, go all out with an attack.


This is akin to me holding back against a 5 year old to let them win, and in the fight I wanna make them think I’m going all out so I throw a punch. Why the fuck would I, whilst trying to lose, throw a full force punch?

Legit counter intuitive

We have seen Itachi use FP Tsukuyomi in all its glory no less than twice and both targets survived
Proof Itachi used full power Tsukuyomi on kid Sasuke? Also doesn’t make any sense

Also proof he used it at full power against Kakashi when two seconds before Kakashi stated Itachi had been holding back?

That’s of course without mentioning that Itachi was working for the leaf and had no reason to go all out. What’s next, we count Kurenai as having relative cqc speed to Itachi because she dodged his kunai and blocked his kick whilst we ignore how he was clearly holding back?

This is legit the same line of reasoning Jman elitists use when they claim Base Jman >> Kisame & Itachi

Don’t stoop that low

:hehe
Theres 0 reason to assume he held back
Besides Itachi having no reason to go all out on a target he’s trying to die to

that Sasuke would face and defeat it, in particular the version he used on kakashi
It was foreshadowed Sasuke would best Itachi

That doesn’t mean Sasuke beat Itachi fairly and not because Itachi held back

:bookerskully

Legit same thing here
and see hes clearly affected greatly by the backlash of it.
This doesn’t mean he went all out with it

He was extremely Ill, he can hold back and still suffer consequences due to an illness regardless of not going all out

:kanyeshrug
Sasukes head and shoulders more skilled in general and knowledgeable regarding Sharingan genjutsu, coupled with his Tsukuyomi experience, and still would miss something as obvious and powerful as Tsukuyomis key defining aspect?
No reason to assume Sasuke saw the full power of Tsukuyomi the first time either.

Sasuke doesn’t know the full power of the Tsukuyomi, that’s an assumption tounge made, and Itachi absolutely could have let him break out whilst making it believable

Except Sasukes own experience with the technique in the past you mean
Proof it was a full power Tsukuyomi?

Getting negged by something once at 13 doesn’t make you a fucking expert on the topic

:mjlol:mjlol
:catjam:catjam:catjam
 

Black zetsu

Well-Known Member
no it isnt
:bury
Your disagreement was the light that confirmed me being right
Sasuke flat out broke it on panel and its confirmed in the DBs he faced "the eternal genjutsu" of Tsukuyomi when he did so
He broke a weakned tsukuyomi which is fine

I can break a cracked a stone , but I will break my hand against a not cracked one
:kanyeshrug
also beyond cope to suggest Sasuke, who has lived through Tsukuyomis time dilation, would miss Itachi just not using it
This is irrelevant
He didn't know that his brother was a sick mf who all his plan was just to free him from oro's CS
The dude believed that he was really stronger , so lol ?
Stay in denial tho
:lbj
We can't stay in the same place
 

Azula

Not even Mugen Tsukuyomi, the billion times stronger version of Tsukuyomi is unbreakable. Sasuke and Naruto were able to break it with little amount of bijuu chakra. All genjutsu can be broken with powerful chakra.

Tsukuyomi was broken by curse mark chakra which is the poor man's version of Sage Mode. So tsukuyomi too can be broken with powerful chakra.
 

Black zetsu

Well-Known Member
Not even Mugen Tsukuyomi, the billion times stronger version of Tsukuyomi is unbreakable. Sasuke and Naruto were able to break it with little amount of bijuu chakra. All genjutsu can be broken with powerful chakra.

Tsukuyomi was broken by curse mark chakra which is the poor man's version of Sage Mode. So tsukuyomi too can be broken with powerful chakra.
:krilldead
 

Aegon Targaryen

The ''King'' of Inventors
What happened? Pretty sure most people would have agreed Itachi held back Tsukuyomi back in the day. Yet here we see so many arguing otherwise.
 

dergeist

Well-Known Member

- tsukuyomi can alter time , space and mass freely just like we knew from Itachi's own words


And it was proven against izumi too , where our topic will go towards.

Tsukuyomi fastest time manipulation was 1 second of tsukuyomi is equal to 0.00000000001 second of reality as shown in Book of Dark Night Chapter 6 Part 6 , and the text is her blow :

"Itachi focused his thoughts on his own genjutsu. Tsukuyomi allowed him
to completely control time, space, and matter. It was a power he had gained
when he activated the Mangekyo sharingan. The time that passed within this
genjutsu was one one-hundredth of one one-thousandth of one one-millionth
of that of the real world "

Few seconds of tsukuyomi is enough to kill the target if the intention wasn't torturing him , itachi killed izumi by making her die in genjutsu , the same can be done with any another target by cutting his head off in Tsukuyomi / any a absolute kill method which causes spirit break down then death , there is no evidence that there's a possibility to control Tsukuyomi's destiny if your aren't the caster

Even kakashi pointed that itachi was capable of killing him , and kisame commented..


So a 0.00000001 of second for example of tsukuyomi is an overkill

And it's technically impossible to do anything in this extremely Short time , cuz as we know , there are 2 methods of breaking genjutsu

They are those 2 above , 2 against 1 , which will eventually fail , cuz the partner can't realize the situation and move in 0.000000001 of second , Minato as one of the top speedsters in NV spent minutes to arrive the battle field , so you got it .

The second method is chakra distribution which is helpless cuz it cant work on ocular genjutsu , and we here are discussing one of the most op ocular genjutsus in the series

And there is final method and it's using dojutsu , and it takes some time too
analysing and Activiting a reversal force takes some worthy time and the evidence is

Itachi against kurenai
He took few seconds to analyze and reverse the genjutsu into her , which proves that the process of performing a genjutsu oppositional force isn't instant even in the hands of genjutsu experts



And kakashi commented that even if you can defeat the genjutsu , it doesn't matter , It will end you in an instant .



but bro ? Itachi said Uchihas can break it

Indeed ,It's a misunderstood info , having a capability to do something ≠ necessarily doing it , we have izumi , yashiro , inabi and p1 sasuke all are Uchihas and failed to even resist it , let alone breaking it .

So how ? They didn't have the time to defeat the genjutsu , they had the capability but hadn't the time to show this capability .

It's simple , let's take an example , you can destroy your opponent, but he is far faster than you , so .. you failed to destroy him

The whole point and strength is focused on the time manipulation which prevents the target from having the chance to escape, so again , being capable to do something techniqually / on paper≠ being capable to do it in real combat , cuz circumstances can change the final result of what can happen just like I explained

Thats why Naruto warned a perfect Jin to avoid it

We know that perfect jins are immune against almost any genjutsu cuz of having a strong partner that distracts their chakra flow , but it won't work with tsukuyomi cuz this partner won't have any time to help , that's why Naruto warned his mate .

tho , tsukuyomi can be broken under special circumstances like setting it's time long enough to be able to break it / the caster allows you to escape / having no torture element makes it easier..etc

@ObitoOfTheOrangeMask
@Wolfgang @Asura barracuda
@dergeist @Seraphic Tenebris @Mad Scientist @Illusory

Facts:Mshad

Essentially it's how long Itachi takes using, and how he decides to compress time and make you experience whatever he decides. It literally overwhelms a person and blows their brain out (kill them if he wants). It's what Kakashi also pointed to. What he used on Cucksuke was something lesser that he allowed him to break free from. The moment soloking manipulates time, it's GG.
 
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Asura barracuda

Weakness....is the original Sin 🌹
Please explain in detail how an illusion can kill someone.

It's almost like you didn't see Kakashi enter a two week coma JUST from side effects of the Tsukuyomi.

And would have stayed far longer if Tsunade didn't come bail his ass.

And it's almost like you forgot Kakashi himself states he could and SHOULD have been killed by the illusion.

Even Kisame had to wonder why Kakashi was still alive.


Jesus man, did you actually read this shit?
 
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