Full extent Tsukuyomi is unbreakable

Black zetsu

Well-Known Member

- tsukuyomi can alter time , space and mass freely just like we knew from Itachi's own words


And it was proven against izumi too , where our topic will go towards.

Tsukuyomi fastest time manipulation was 1 second of tsukuyomi is equal to 0.00000000001 second of reality as shown in Book of Dark Night Chapter 6 Part 6 , and the text is her blow :

"Itachi focused his thoughts on his own genjutsu. Tsukuyomi allowed him
to completely control time, space, and matter. It was a power he had gained
when he activated the Mangekyo sharingan. The time that passed within this
genjutsu was one one-hundredth of one one-thousandth of one one-millionth
of that of the real world "

Few seconds of tsukuyomi is enough to kill the target if the intention wasn't torturing him , itachi killed izumi by making her die in genjutsu , the same can be done with any another target by cutting his head off in Tsukuyomi / any a absolute kill method which causes spirit break down then death , there is no evidence that there's a possibility to control Tsukuyomi's destiny if your aren't the caster

Even kakashi pointed that itachi was capable of killing him , and kisame commented..


So a 0.00000001 of second for example of tsukuyomi is an overkill

And it's technically impossible to do anything in this extremely Short time , cuz as we know , there are 2 methods of breaking genjutsu

They are those 2 above , 2 against 1 , which will eventually fail , cuz the partner can't realize the situation and move in 0.000000001 of second , Minato as one of the top speedsters in NV spent minutes to arrive the battle field , so you got it .

The second method is chakra distribution which is helpless cuz it cant work on ocular genjutsu , and we here are discussing one of the most op ocular genjutsus in the series

And there is final method and it's using dojutsu , and it takes some time too
analysing and Activiting a reversal force takes some worthy time and the evidence is

Itachi against kurenai
He took few seconds to analyze and reverse the genjutsu into her , which proves that the process of performing a genjutsu oppositional force isn't instant even in the hands of genjutsu experts



And kakashi commented that even if you can defeat the genjutsu , it doesn't matter , It will end you in an instant .



but bro ? Itachi said Uchihas can break it

Indeed ,It's a misunderstood info , having a capability to do something ≠ necessarily doing it , we have izumi , yashiro , inabi and p1 sasuke all are Uchihas and failed to even resist it , let alone breaking it .

So how ? They didn't have the time to defeat the genjutsu , they had the capability but hadn't the time to show this capability .

It's simple , let's take an example , you can destroy your opponent, but he is far faster than you , so .. you failed to destroy him

The whole point and strength is focused on the time manipulation which prevents the target from having the chance to escape, so again , being capable to do something techniqually / on paper≠ being capable to do it in real combat , cuz circumstances can change the final result of what can happen just like I explained

Thats why Naruto warned a perfect Jin to avoid it

We know that perfect jins are immune against almost any genjutsu cuz of having a strong partner that distracts their chakra flow , but it won't work with tsukuyomi cuz this partner won't have any time to help , that's why Naruto warned his mate .

tho , tsukuyomi can be broken under special circumstances like setting it's time long enough to be able to break it / the caster allows you to escape / having no torture element makes it easier..etc

@ObitoOfTheOrangeMask
@Wolfgang @Asura barracuda
@dergeist @Seraphic Tenebris @Mad Scientist @Illusory
 

Capa13

Well-Known Member
:bury
Prove that a dojutsu can analyse and work faster than 0.0000000001 of second , or you lose ,@Rin
It’s unbreakable by anybody within Itachi’s realm of power. But it’s not even working at all on anybody beyond a certain power level.

To summarize, Tsukuyomi would literally do absolutely nothing to Hashirama. Hashirama is LEAGUES above Itachi and has so much chakra that the genjutsu wouldn’t even be able to penetrate into his chakra network.

The way genjutsu works, particularly ocular based genjutsu is by emitting chakra through ones eyes into the opponents eyes and then into their chakra network system which therefore the genjutsu chakra manipulates the chakra network system to perceive things that aren’t reality.

Now picture genjutsu chakra (tsukuyomi’s “MS” chakra”) as a volume of liquid like food colouring. Fodder genjutsu is nothing more than a couple droplets of food colouring. Drop that into a pool of water (which would equate to somebody like Kakashi’s chakra pool) and not much changes really. Now tsukuyomi is ridiculously potent and powerful so instead of a few droplets. It would be more like a pond worth of food colouring. Now you’re left with an overflowing cesspool of mainly food colouring which would overide the entire initial volume of water (chakra pool). Now picture Hashirama. Hashirama’s chakra pool isn’t just some “pool” it’s a fucking ocean. Now dump the pond of food colouring (tsukuyomi’s chakra) into Hashirama’s ocean (chakra pool and strength) and basically nothing changes.

Now considering Itachi is absurdly powerful and well above almost 99.9% of the verse and tsukuyomi is so potent, yeah. It’s basically unbreakable. But put him up against people at his level and with some hax against it like natural genjutsu resistance via a dojutsu, or immense chakra pools, etc, and it’s likelihood of even activating drops to near 0.
 

Black zetsu

Well-Known Member
It’s unbreakablw by anybody within Itachi’s realm of power. But it’s not even working at all on anybody beyond a certain power level.

To summarize, Tsukuyomi would literally do absolutely nothing to Hashirama. Hashirama is LEAGUES above Itachi and has so much chakra that the genjutsu wouldn’t even be able to penetrate into his chakra network.

The way genjutsu works, particularly ocular based genjutsu is by emitting chakra through ones eyes into the opponents eyes and then into their chakra network system which therefore the genjutsu chakra manipulates the chakra network system to perceive things that aren’t reality.

Now picture genjutsu chakra (tsukuyomi’s “MS” chakra”) as a volume of liquid like food colouring. Fodder genjutsu is nothing more than a couple droplets of food colouring. Drop that into a pool (which would equate to somebody like Kakashi’s chakra pool) and not much changes really. Now tsukuyomi is ridiculously potent and powerful so instead of a few droplets. It would be more like a pond worth of food colouring. Now you’re left with an overflowing cesspool of mainly food colouring which would overide the entire initial volume of water (chakra pool). Now picture Hashirama. Hashirama’s chakra pool isn’t just some “pool” it’s a fucking ocean. Now dump the pond of food colouring (tsukuyomi’s chakra) into Hashirama’s ocean (chakra pool and strength) and basically nothing changes.

Now considering Itachi is absurdly powerful and well above almost 99.9% of the verse and tsukuyomi is so potent, yeah. It’s basically unbreakable. But put him up against people at his level and with some hax against it like natural genjutsu resistance via a dojutsu, or immense chakra pools, etc, and it’s likelihood of even activating drops to near 0.
I see your point

Unbreakable ≠ can beat any one
 

Black zetsu

Well-Known Member
natural genjutsu resistance via a dojutsu, or immense chakra pools, etc, and it’s likelihood of even activating drops to near 0.
I would argue about that

Chakra amounts can't help in breaking genjutsu as far as I think , kurama was placed under 3T genjutsu and A4 under 1/25 Madara

While I'm sure that kurama's chakra >>>> Obito by far in volume

And A4 > 1/25 Madara

Your thoughts ?
 

Asura barracuda

Weakness....is the original Sin 🌹
To summarize, Tsukuyomi would literally do absolutely nothing to Hashirama. Hashirama is LEAGUES above Itachi and has so much chakra that the genjutsu wouldn’t even be able to penetrate into his chakra network.

Huh?

That's not how genjutsu works, it's never worked that way.

It's never depended on how much chakra you have.

Kurama has chakra on the same level of Hashirama and he's vulnerable to Genjutsu.

Gyuki too has Leagues more Chakra than Itachi and he can get caught.

Nagato has Leagues more Chakra than Itachi but even he will get caught.

MS genjutsu has nothing to do with how powerful you are.

Especially Tsukuyomi, if Hashirama gets caught in the Tsukuyomi he WILL die.

Tsukuyomi is immune to partner method, Bypasses Perfect Jinchuriki defense.

It's literally just meant to bypass because it's too fast to break.
 

Black zetsu

Well-Known Member
tsukuyomi is practically featless. defeating someone like part 1 Kakashi is not worth mentioning...
Finished off kiiro , yashiro , inabi and izumi

+ P1 kakashi is a sharingan user , his resistance is well above average jonin , so yeah it's a good feat , sharingan users are said to see through any illusion.
 

New Folder

Well-Known Member
, so yeah it's a good feat
it's an ok feat, but that's about it. It's just a part 1 Kakashi.
you don't see people going around saying Zabuza's Water prison is the strongest jutsu and can defeat everyone and their mothers, now do you?

Even tho it defeated Kakashi as well... :oldshrug

that the best we can give to it, it might be able to defeat characters around part 1 Kakashi's level. :catshrug
 

Black zetsu

Well-Known Member
it's an ok feat, but that's about it. It's just a part 1 Kakashi.
you don't see people going around saying Zabuza's Water prison is the strongest jutsu and can defeat everyone and their mothers, now do you?

Even tho it defeated Kakashi as well... :oldshrug

that the best we can give to it, it might be able to defeat characters around part 1 Kakashi's level. :catshrug
It's not about kakashi , bro .
It's about his sharingan , sharingan has a natural immunity against most genjutsus , you need some special genjutsu to take down him
 

New Folder

Well-Known Member
It's not about kakashi , bro .
It's about his sharingan , sharingan has a natural immunity against most genjutsus , you need some special genjutsu to take down him
Sharingan is cool and all, but we know it's not everything.

Such that, we know tsukuyomi is trash in front of someone like Tsunade, as she healed Kakashi & Sasuke easily in a second
with the lowest of her healing jutsu. :oldshrug


and with the jutsu being practically featless, we can't make much of it. It's just how Amaterasu was the "ultimate jutsu" back then
but now we know that it's just trash that can be dealt with by Academy students (Kawarimi jutsu).


in short, tsukuyomi needs more feat, but it doesn't have any sadly. :catshrug
 

Sleepless

Well-Known Member
Real question is where does it cap out? I don't buy the "big chakra = ineffective" argument. If there's no cap, Itachi can solo Kaguya.
 

Charisma

Well-Known Member
This thread falls short heavily in evidence.

It's foundation is Itachi's feats in the novels, despite the Naruto Hiden series being confirmed by the authors to be non-canon.

The evidence argues only for one side. If Itachi can cast his genjutsu in a fraction of a second, then it only stands to reason that the opponent can break it in the same time. While it may take time to assert that what they are experiencing is actually genjutsu, if it takes them a minute to do so, that minute is while under the genjutsu. Meaning that minute it took them to do something about it in genjutsu time, is still only a fraction of a second in real-time.

It worked against Kakashi because he can't do anything about it, even knowing it's genjutsu. That doesn't apply to an Uchiha, though: which is the exact downfall that Itachi himself states.
 

Asura barracuda

Weakness....is the original Sin 🌹
This thread falls short heavily in evidence.

It's foundation is Itachi's feats in the novels, despite the Naruto Hiden series being confirmed by the authors to be non-canon.

How were Naruto novels confirmed non-canon?

Especially Itachi shinden novels?



It worked against Kakashi because he can't do anything about it, even knowing it's genjutsu. That doesn't apply to an Uchiha, though: which is the exact downfall that Itachi himself states.

So Sasuke is an Uchiha with peak genjutsu skills and resistance, but it worked perfectly fine on him.

In fact it was Itachi who has to hold back on Sasuke twice, the second time Itachi didn't even use time dilation.


In Shippuden Kakashi called Itachi's Tsukuyomi flat out unbreakable, he didn't even say unless another Uchiha were here then it is possible.

There was no exception at all.

Kakashi just called it flat out unbreakable, he said it doesn't matter if you can break Genjutsu nor does it matter if you're aware of it.

The time in which Tsukuyomi operates makes it useless to try anything at all.


He literally killed his girlfriend with this.
 

Black zetsu

Well-Known Member
This thread falls short heavily in evidence.

It's foundation is Itachi's feats in the novels, despite the Naruto Hiden series being confirmed by the authors to be non-canon.

The evidence argues only for one side. If Itachi can cast his genjutsu in a fraction of a second, then it only stands to reason that the opponent can break it in the same time. While it may take time to assert that what they are experiencing is actually genjutsu, if it takes them a minute to do so, that minute is while under the genjutsu. Meaning that minute it took them to do something about it in genjutsu time, is still only a fraction of a second in real-time.

It worked against Kakashi because he can't do anything about it, even knowing it's genjutsu. That doesn't apply to an Uchiha, though: which is the exact downfall that Itachi himself states.
Remove the novel part , It won't even effect my thread

It's stated in manga that " tsukuyomi" can completely control time , cuz it's simply his own world

+ Novels are official , alot of mangas / series were continued by another authors and still canon

I mean .. so the first half of Boruto is fanfiction? Surely no
 

Charisma

Well-Known Member
How were Naruto novels confirmed non-canon?

Especially Itachi shinden novels?
One of the authors outright stated that the novelizations were non-canon. It's not a debate at all, really.

You can cling to the hope that Itachi Shinden is different, even though it's a part of the same licensed Naruto Hiden works, but there's certainly nothing in your favor.

So Sasuke is an Uchiha with peak genjutsu skills and resistance, but it worked perfectly fine on him.
Not sure where you got this. The entire plot point was the exact opposite: Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi.

In fact it was Itachi who has to hold back on Sasuke twice, the second time Itachi didn't even use time dilation.
It's only your assumption that time manipulation would have done anything. It's just as easily valid for me to say it wasn't used because it would have been useless in the first place against Sasuke, as I pointed out in my post.

In Shippuden Kakashi called Itachi's Tsukuyomi flat out unbreakable, he didn't even say unless another Uchiha were here then it is possible.
Why is this an argument?

You are using Kakashi as the arbiter of truth? Why would Kakashi know anything about Tsukuyomi? About it's weakness, when he isn't an Uchiha in the first place? Why are you putting his words above that of Itachi's, the owner of Tsukuyomi? Especially when we see Itachi, on panel, describe Tsukuyomi to Kakashi as if he doesn't know, along with it's weakness.

The time in which Tsukuyomi operates makes it useless to try anything at all.
I already explained why this doesn't make sense in my post. You completely skipped the section, for whatever reason.
 

Charisma

Well-Known Member
It's stated in manga that " tsukuyomi" can completely control time , cuz it's simply his own world
Not a single soul would deny this obvious fact.

+ Novels are official , alot of mangas / series were continued by another authors and still canon

I mean .. so the first half of Boruto is fanfiction? Surely no
I didn't say Naruto Hiden wasn't canon because it was by other authors.

I said it wasn't canon because the authors confirmed it as so.
 

Milliardo

Guy that's been here too long
Genjutsu has never killed anyone in the manga. Kakashi was like tortured for 72 hours in Tsukiyomi and was fine after a little bed rest.

Sasuke actually broke out of Tsukiyomi so its not be all end all.
 

Asura barracuda

Weakness....is the original Sin 🌹
One of the authors outright stated that the novelizations were non-canon. It's not a debate at all, really.

You can cling to the hope that Itachi Shinden is different, even though it's a part of the same licensed Naruto Hiden works, but there's certainly nothing in your favor.

When and where did this happen exactly?


Itachi shinden is something that came out hand in hand with the manga.

Kishi wanted Itachis story expanded and so it was expanded.




Not sure where you got this. The entire plot point was the exact opposite: Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi.

Obitos words and Sasukes mental breakdown at the fact of remembering the Tsukuyomi scene thinking he did begs to differ.

Danzo too begs to differ.

The manga even makes this clear that Itachi never bothered to use time dilation in the fight with Sasuke.

We saw no time dilation sorry.



It's only your assumption that time manipulation would have done anything. It's just as easily valid for me to say it wasn't used because it would have been useless in the first place against Sasuke, as I pointed out in my post.

Huh?

Time dilation was already used against Sasuke to torture him for 24 hours straight, he didn't break it then so what do you mean time dilation doesn't work against Sasuke?




Why is this an argument?

You are using Kakashi as the arbiter of truth? Why would Kakashi know anything about Tsukuyomi? About it's weakness, when he isn't an Uchiha in the first place? Why are you putting his words above that of Itachi's, the owner of Tsukuyomi? Especially when we see Itachi, on panel, describe Tsukuyomi to Kakashi as if he doesn't know, along with it's weakness.

Actually Kakashi is very much a word of god on Tsukuyomi.

He's got first hand experience, also is exposition to us in the scene.

Itachi told Kakashi about Tsukuyomis weakness, and in Shippuden it was still called flat out unbreakable by that same person.

Kakashi very well knows what he's talking about I'm sure, his words take precedence here.
 

Asura barracuda

Weakness....is the original Sin 🌹
Genjutsu has never killed anyone in the manga. Kakashi was like tortured for 72 hours in Tsukiyomi and was fine after a little bed rest

Sorta Ignorance is this shit.


Kakashi himself flat out states that Itachi could have killed him with Genjutsu if he wanted and was surprised at why he was still alive.

Even Kisame was surprised.

And what do you mean fine with a little bed rest?

Kakashi was in a coma, Tsunade had to come heal his mind in order for him to wake up.

What bed rest you talking about?
 

Black zetsu

Well-Known Member
Genjutsu has never killed anyone in the manga. Kakashi was like tortured for 72 hours in Tsukiyomi and was fine after a little bed rest.
He spent 2 weaks and needed Tsunade

+ It's stated directly that itachi was just able to kill Him
Sasuke actually broke out of Tsukiyomi so its not be all end all
, tsukuyomi can be broken under special circumstances like setting it's time long enough to be able to break it / the caster allows you to escape / having no torture element makes it easier..etc
 

Charisma

Well-Known Member
When and where did this happen exactly?

Itachi shinden is something that came out hand in hand with the manga.

Kishi wanted Itachis story expanded and so it was expanded.
The time it came out is irrelevant. Timing is not justification. The reason is came out is irrelevant. All the novels came out for the same reason: expansion of the story.

Neither of these rebuke the fact that the novels are not canon. They are merely separate licensed works to further expand the world of Naruto. Not everyone cares about "canon". Most readers just want good and realistic stories to read about their favorite characters.

Obitos words and Sasukes mental breakdown at the fact of remembering the Tsukuyomi scene thinking he did begs to differ.
Sasuke was not thinking back to Tsukuyomi only. He says Itachi used every Mangekyou technique he had available, and then proceeds to think back to Itachi using both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. It doesn't mean Tsukuyomi itself would have been able to kill Sasuke by itself. I mean, Sasuke was undoubtedly hit by Amaterasu full-force. There's no weakening that. Despite getting hit, and despite Sasuke thinking back on it, Sasuke still was able to counter it. Nothing Itachi could have done would have killed Sasuke. Oral-rebirth would have worked in any instance, there. Just like Sasuke breaking out of Tsukuyomi would have worked in any instance.

The Databook, a neutral and omniscient party, treats Sasuke's triumph over Tsukuyomi as an actual feat of his prowess. No assumptions here, just a plain statement.

Danzo too begs to differ.
Danzou is just like Kakashi. Not an Uchiha. Using someone like Kakashi doesn't help your case. Time manipulation would have been effective on him. So, it doesn't matter what he thinks.

The manga even makes this clear that Itachi never bothered to use time dilation in the fight with Sasuke.

We saw no time dilation sorry.
And you can't prove it was because Itachi held back. As I said, the claim it was due to holding back is no more valid than the claim that he didn't use it because it would have been useless against Sasuke.

Huh?

Time dilation was already used against Sasuke to torture him for 24 hours straight, he didn't break it then so what do you mean time dilation doesn't work against Sasuke?
I hope this is a joke. Obviously Tsukuyomi is going to work against a prepubescent, unskilled Sasuke with no Sharingan development.

Actually Kakashi is very much a word of god on Tsukuyomi.

He's got first hand experience, also is exposition to us in the scene.
First hand experience as a non-Uchiha. He knows full well, that as a non-Uchiha, Tsukuyomi cannot be beaten. That's it. That's the only first-hand experience he has.

Itachi told Kakashi about Tsukuyomis weakness, and in Shippuden it was still called flat out unbreakable by that same person.

Kakashi very well knows what he's talking about I'm sure, his words take precedence here.
I hope this, too, is a joke. Kakashi does not take precedence over Itachi. He does not know more than Itachi does about Itachi's own technique. The guy literally says Tsukuyomi can probably be beaten by his Sharingan and stares right into Itachi's eyes, only to be corrected by Itachi and get defeated by Tsukuyomi.
 
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Milliardo

Guy that's been here too long
Sorta Ignorance is this shit.


Kakashi himself flat out states that Itachi could have killed him with Genjutsu if he wanted and was surprised at why he was still alive.

Even Kisame was surprised.
How would an illusion kill someone? Lol No genjutsu has killed anyone.



And what do you mean fine with a little bed rest?

Kakashi was in a coma, Tsunade had to come heal his mind in order for him to wake up.

What bed rest you talking about?
Kakashi was already shown up. In the anime its implied like its not a big deal and Guy was more concerned with Lee.

At best Tsunade just sped up the process.
 

Callen

Well-Known Member
Such that, we know tsukuyomi is trash in front of someone like Tsunade, as she healed Kakashi & Sasuke easily in a second
with the lowest of her healing jutsu.
while Tsunade helped Sasuke and Kakashi recover from the effects, this doesn't mean if the doujutsu was used on her, she would be able to break out. Recovering from its effetcs=/= Breaking Tsukuyomi.


Genjutsu has never killed anyone in the manga.
The Infinite Tsukuyomi turns people into living slaves. That's a fate worse than death.


kakashi was like tortured for 72 hours in Tsukiyomi and was fine after a little bed rest.
Tsunade healed him, not the bed rest.
 

Milliardo

Guy that's been here too long
The Infinite Tsukuyomi turns people into living slaves. That's a fate worse than death.
Well thats kinda what genjutsu does, control people.

Tsunade healed him, not the bed rest.
Never said she didn't. What I'm saying is it wasn't treated like a big deal like it was with Sasuke.

I think Kakashi would have healed on his own.
 
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