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FKT Hitsugaya vs HM Nnoitra

Who wins?


  • Total voters
    11

Colmillo

Well-Known Member
Still remember her allowing Toshiro to prep SH right in front of her face, then tanking it and destroying it like it was nothing

The anime team hated Toshiro's guts :kermitthink
She also blitzed toshiro, it was one of those moments where Toshiro didn’t even know she was there until she said something.
 

Sablés

Well-Known Member
And Ichigo gets around this
In other words, this supposed "skill" factor you're alluding to doesn't matter if you just go fast.
This is a weak argument. Just drop it.
Zaraki on the other hand is consistently portrayed as outright slow
The man has more blitz showings than Hitsugaya does. :lmao



Uh, between Yammy's cero charge time giving them ample time to get out of dodge(Halibel was charging hers while dashing) and the larger distance that's still not directly comparable. Saying the distance wasn't massive doesn't change that fact that there's simply no relation involved here
Uh no. Halibel was charging her cero and Hitsugaya caught the charge. Just as Kenpachi and Byakuya caught Yammy's charge. Her "dashing" does not create a meaningful distinction unless you want to prove that her cero charges at a smaller timeframe. You bring up an ambiguously further distance, and I'll just say that Yammy's cero was straight up harder to dodge by virtue of AoE. :lmao
DB definitely says good things about Toshiro's speed
Post it.
Pretty sure that's said about Gin. And Hitsugaya did not compete with Gin in speed whatsoever. Said speed which isn't impressive at all, btw. Gin himself has no speed feats, and had his shikai reacted to by Pre "VC" Ichigo.
Tesla was right in front of him and lunged at him
Sure on that one.


Giriko literally bulked up right in from of him
No. Giriko was a distance away and Kenpachi literally blitze his way a distance past him while Giriko had no idea what happened. That's textbook blitz and required Kenpachi moving his legs.
Jerome got in his face and roared at him
Berenice got close enough distance to have a conversation with him to use her schrift which means she was also close
Nope.


Zaraki lunged at them and neither reacted.
 

docj

i have returned
lSure on that one.
Yes. Kenpachi literally saved Ichigo by blocking Tesla’s punch. He was directly in front of him.
No. Giriko was a distance away and Kenpachi literally blitze his way a distance past him while Giriko had no idea what happened. That's textbook blitz and required Kenpachi moving his legs.
No. Giriko was literally on top of Kenpachi before getting sliced. Kenpachi cut him and walked away stating he was bored. Giriko is splitting in half as he is walking away.
 

Sablés

Well-Known Member
Yes. Kenpachi literally saved Ichigo by blocking Tesla’s punch. He was directly in front of him.
Yes, I agreed...

No. Giriko was literally on top of Kenpachi before getting sliced. Kenpachi cut him and walked away stating he was bored. Giriko is splitting in half as he is walking away.




Giriko's doesn't even react to his own impending demise by the time Zaraki is already on the other side. He got blitzed. Nothing more to it.
 

Matador

Well-Known Member
In other words, this supposed "skill" factor you're alluding to doesn't matter if you just go fast.

Skill is definitely strongly correlated with speed in the manga, and saying "but look at Ichigo" doesn't change that. All of the fastest Gotei 13 captains were either stated or shown to be very skilled in the field from training under Yoruichi and employ specialized techniques

I never said you can't go fast without shunpo anyway :kermitthink

The man has more blitz showings than Hitsugaya does. :lmao

He blitzed Giriko I guess?

You bring up an ambiguously further distance, and I'll just say that Yammy's cero was straight up harder to dodge by virtue of AoE. :lmao

Let me get this straight

Their feats are comparable because... a stronger Zaraki dodged an ambiguously cero from an ambiguously larger distance. Stop it man. They're fine standalone feats but you can't properly quantify them to make a direct comparison

Might as well scale him to HM Ichigo with that same train of thought and all that ambiguity :lmao

Post it.
Pretty sure that's said about Gin.

I believe it was said about Toshiro but hopefully we can get a confirmation by DB nerds

If Kubo made the effort to directly emphasize their speed, by all logical accounts it would suggest they're not relatively slow. I don't think that's a hot take. Same way Szayel's intelligence, Zommari's speed and Nnoitra's CQC was emphasized

Said speed which isn't impressive at all, btw. Gin himself has no speed feats, and had his shikai reacted to by Pre "VC" Ichigo.

Gin's stats aren't what makes him so lethal, but he's fast enough to pressure and react to FKT Ichigo up close

And Ichigo barely reacted to Shinso after: backing up, warning him, and shot from a huge distance. Shinso was reacted to at point-blank range behind his robes by comparison
 

Sablés

Well-Known Member
Skill is definitely strongly correlated with speed in the manga, and saying "but look at Ichigo" doesn't change that.
Yet you somehow have every reason to doubt that Zommari is the fastest. Hm :kermitthink
He blitzed Giriko I guess?
Read the thread.
Their feats are comparable because... a stronger Zaraki dodged
Zaraki being stronger isn't relevant. You're docking his clearly impressive feats by appealing to his portrayal (which you presume is negative), as if his portrayal between SS-HM in terms of speed ever changed.
an ambiguously cero
Nothing ambiguous of Yammy's cero being harder to escape than Halibel's. You're assuming that her being mid-dash somehow makes said charge faster.
from an ambiguously larger distance.
This is the one thing I'd hand to you, but it's negligible and you know it. There is nowhere near enough distance between Yammy and the captains to make it a complicating factor. It's not like Hitsugaya was hit point-blank either.

And you're talking ambiguity, yet simultaneously arguing that Hitsugaya and Halibel are faster than Nnoitra, because Hitsugaya is faster than Zaraki. When both of these are easily contested. Not a shred of defining evidence in Hitsugaya's favor.
Same way Szayel's intelligence, Zommari's speed and Nnoitra's CQC was emphasized
Glad to have you have on the Zommari = Fastest espada train then, I guess. Let's do good work together. :jaeshrug

Gin's stats aren't what makes him so lethal, but he's fast enough to pressure and react to FKT Ichigo up close
Read that fight again.
The threat of Gin's bankai being pointed at him was what stole Ichigo's attention. He couldn't attack blindly while being wary of it. It's not a purely CQC feat. Reactions are obviously fine, but we're not discussing that.

And Ichigo barely reacted to Shinso after: backing up, warning him, and shot from a huge distance.
Ichigo positioned Zangetsu to block AFTER Gin shot at him. And it was a clean block so I don't know what you mean by barely. :headscrat


That term would better apply here:

Shinso was reacted to at point-blank range behind his robes by comparison
Hitsugaya only narrowly dodged, and got an injury from the exchange.
 

Matador

Well-Known Member
Yet you somehow have every reason to doubt that Zommari is the fastest. Hm :kermitthink

If it makes you feel better I don't think all that highly of Soi Fon's speed either :kermit

Read the thread.

We didn't see what happened with Jerome

>Jerome blows off the heads of random shinigami and is still looking in their direction
??? occured
>Immediate next jump cut is him getting split in two

Insufficient information to dub it a blitz. For all we know he could have lunged at him from behind while he was turning and surprised him

Zaraki being stronger isn't relevant. You're docking his clearly impressive feats by appealing to his portrayal (which you presume is negative), as if his portrayal between SS-HM in terms of speed ever changed.

I never called Toshiro's cero dodging feat impressive and I don't consider Zaraki dodging Yammy's cero to be all that great either

And Zaraki was definitely portrayed as more agile after the Nnoitra amp anyway

This is the one thing I'd hand to you, but it's negligible and you know it.

From my extremely cohesive Google search, I read somewhere that Ape Yammy is 100m tall. Assuming caterpillar form is half that size, even while crouching that's at least 10-15m from the ground. Assuming the height is accurate(and sounds like a good rough estimate) it's a lot larger than the near point-blank range from Halibel's

And you're talking ambiguity, yet simultaneously arguing that Hitsugaya and Halibel are faster than Nnoitra, because Hitsugaya is faster than Zaraki. When both of these are easily contested. Not a shred of defining evidence in Hitsugaya's favor.

It's the nature of pitting fighters in a Battledome setting with no direct comparison. There will always some speculation involved, we just have to make the most of what we're working with

Base Nel was a lot faster than Nnoitra, and I do think it's a stretch to argue rusty Base Nel would be far faster than Released Halibel when looking at everything holistically. Especially considering Nel is far weaker than Halibel with a similar fighting style
 

Sablés

Well-Known Member
If it makes you feel better I don't think all that highly of Soi Fon's speed either :kermit
Then Idk what the heck you mean by speed/shunpo being largely determined by skill. Seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it here, bro. :pepethink
 

Lord Stark

Master of Dripmark
His speed stat is above average and I believe @Lord Stark mentioned that the DB said his speed was "lightning fast" in one of his SS battles. His speed isn't often highlighted but he's never once been portrayed as outright slow unlike the aforementioned fighters

The DB has Hitsugaya's speed as a 90, above Gin and on par with Byakuya, Aizen, Shunsui, and Tosen. Then there is another quote about Gin & Hitsugaya's speed but I don't remember it and am not home rn. :pepethunk

EDIT: Found it in an old post

Book of souls describes his fight with Gin as a battle at "god-like speed". Only characters who get that description are Yourichi in her tag match with Byakuya and Ichigo post-Tensa Zangetsu. I need to review the context of the Bootleg databook but pretty sure Hitsugaya's speed is rated pretty highly in that as well.
 

Corax

Well-Known Member
Yeah, Hitsu is very fast. Especially in adult form. He dodged Gin's shikai when it was like millimeter away from his eye and blitzed fake Aizen in the council of 46 hall. So I don't think he'll have any troubles at all here vs opponent who can't even use ranged attacks unlike Tier.
 
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