DR Zoro vs Ulti
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TrolonoaZoro
An artist with a Katana.
By dressrosa Zoro already had better DC feats than most commanders. He then went missing till he came to Wano where he matched against the YC commander Denjiro and disappeared the YC Killer with one of his weakest techniques pre Enma power up.
Assuming he got 2 passive island hopping power boosts. He's still in the YC commander range by Dressrosa.
Which should give him the benefit of the doubt vs Veterans.
Assuming he got 2 passive island hopping power boosts. He's still in the YC commander range by Dressrosa.
Which should give him the benefit of the doubt vs Veterans.
Zoro mid diffs.
MrAnalogies
I'm just here for the chaos
Wano Base Luffy>>>DR Zoro.
Wano Base Luffy>/=Ulti
Ulti's AP, speed, and durability are comparable to a character who is far above DR Zoro. Ulti low diffs.
Wano Base Luffy>/=Ulti
Ulti's AP, speed, and durability are comparable to a character who is far above DR Zoro. Ulti low diffs.
bil02
Well-Known Member
I'm not closed to this idea but could you elaborate on why you think so?
The only thing Luffy did from Dressrossa to post-Udon which could have boosted his base abilities is the Udon training which boosted his base by an unquantifiable amount.
Against Ulti,Luffy didn't use any advanced haki type offensively (I precise offensively because he seemingly used Future sight to see what kind of damage ulti's meteor strike would inflict) and basically used moves he was capable of back in Dressrossa,with regular hardening.
Eustathios
Well-Known Member
DR Zoro is basically pre-Enma Wano Zoro. And he didn't get much training with Enma either, so he's pretty close to RT Zoro. He wrecks.
MrAnalogies
I'm just here for the chaos
Luffy became significantly stronger in between Dressrosa and Udon.
During whole cake he learned future sight and improved his overall game fighting Katakuri.
In Udon he learned advanced armament and could knock base Kaido down and partially dodge thunder bagua when he was helpless and got 1-shot in their last fight.
When he fought Ulti, her headbutts clashed evenly with Luffy which proved she had very impressive armament haki. She could also survive an attack from Big Mom (maiser cannon) displaying impressive durability. What's telling is Luffy considered going Gear 4 to stop Hybrid Ulti which means he probably thought continuing to fight her in base just using armament might take up too much time.
DR Zoro is nowhere near base Luffy in Wano. DR Zoro is significantly weaker than Rooftop Wano Zoro. Rooftop Wano Zoro had Enma and is weaker than Post Udon Luffy. Basic math.
bil02
Well-Known Member
I'm expressly asking about any feats/showings proving why base Luffy(no advanced haki used vs Ulti) from Onigashima is significantly stronger than his Dressrossa self?
I mean the very fact base Luffy didn't use any new moves or advanced haki applications vs Ulti doesn't have me beleive yet he was significantly stronger than his Dressrossa self when those abilities are what made him quite stronger in the first place.
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Great Potato
Well-Known Member
Going with Zoro high-diff.
Ulti comes out more impressive in resilience, but Zoro looks better offensively. It will take a good amount to keep her down, but I don't see her Ulti Mortars holding up in clashes to Zoro's higher end stuff. I hold all of the Worst Generation above Ulti.
Ulti comes out more impressive in resilience, but Zoro looks better offensively. It will take a good amount to keep her down, but I don't see her Ulti Mortars holding up in clashes to Zoro's higher end stuff. I hold all of the Worst Generation above Ulti.
Vivo Diez
Well-Known Member
Ulti high diff.
Strength wise she overpowered Raid Base Luffy not once, but twice. This is a much stronger version of Luffy than even the one that was having base armament punch outs with Katakuri. Raid Base Luffy overpowers PH Zoro any day of the week.
Durability wise Ulti clearly takes it, don’t even have to go into detail.
Strength wise she overpowered Raid Base Luffy not once, but twice. This is a much stronger version of Luffy than even the one that was having base armament punch outs with Katakuri. Raid Base Luffy overpowers PH Zoro any day of the week.
Durability wise Ulti clearly takes it, don’t even have to go into detail.
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Vivo Diez
Well-Known Member
Only because Luffy didn’t know the secret to his DF. Ulti overpowered with raw strength and it will be a contest of strength between her and Zoro.
Also Apoo is not one shot material for Base Raid Luffy. Even Raid Zoro’s named attack only managed to put him down for a few moments.
Van Basten
Blah Blah Blah
Zoro mid diff.
Kylo Ren
Pirate King
She only looks good because Luffy fights her in which she excels. Zoro doesn't need to match Ulti's strength his sword skill will take care of that. Zoro parries Kaido's attack without a problem and even lands a clean hit. Zoro might not be on that level but Ulti is no Kaido either the DR version of Zoro doing that same feat is enough to put her down.
Red Rock will K.O Dj Apoo
Great Potato
Well-Known Member
I believe Ulti's feat against Luffy is overblown.
The moment in question, Ulti uses her signature attack of a diving headbutt into Luffy, who chooses to just stand there and brace for the impact with his head. No movement on his part, no stretching, just coating his head and blocking her attack she put a lot of momentum behind. It's not like she overpowered an actual attack from Luffy, like if he threw even a basic Pistol or anything. She basically just powered through his standing guard and then he blamed himself saying he shouldn't have taken her so lightly in an Emperor's castle.
Replace Ulti with Dressrosa Zoro in this situation and have Luffy try forehead blocking one of his signature attacks, and I see him ending a bit worse off in the exchange than he did here. Luffy being unable to escape her full zoan grip in time for her headbutt is the more impressive feat here, but we never got to see how that exchange would have played out. Nami and Usopp were surviving headbutts from Hybrid Ulti though, so Zoro should be able to endure quite a bit of her offense before he's at risk of going down.
The moment in question, Ulti uses her signature attack of a diving headbutt into Luffy, who chooses to just stand there and brace for the impact with his head. No movement on his part, no stretching, just coating his head and blocking her attack she put a lot of momentum behind. It's not like she overpowered an actual attack from Luffy, like if he threw even a basic Pistol or anything. She basically just powered through his standing guard and then he blamed himself saying he shouldn't have taken her so lightly in an Emperor's castle.
Replace Ulti with Dressrosa Zoro in this situation and have Luffy try forehead blocking one of his signature attacks, and I see him ending a bit worse off in the exchange than he did here. Luffy being unable to escape her full zoan grip in time for her headbutt is the more impressive feat here, but we never got to see how that exchange would have played out. Nami and Usopp were surviving headbutts from Hybrid Ulti though, so Zoro should be able to endure quite a bit of her offense before he's at risk of going down.
MrAnalogies
I'm just here for the chaos
That's actually a silly question. Whether Luffy used a new technique he learned doesn't change the fact base Luffy in Wano was stronger than Base Luffy in Dressrosa. Every arc base Luffy improves.
Gear FOUR Luffy couldn't put a dent in Kaido with a BARRAGE of punches and was ONE SHOT by Kaido at the start of Wano. Thunder Bagua was too fast for him even with future sight. After Udon, BASE Luffy was not only able to partially dodge and survive thunder bagua, he knocked Kaido down with red roc.
Even if for the sake of argument you think base Luffy at the start of Wano=Base Luffy in Dressrosa (and you'd be wrong), we know for a fact post Udon Luffy is leagues ahead of base Luffy in Dressrosa based on how he did against Kaido.
When characters get stronger in between arcs, it isn't just a matter of learning new techniques. Luffy's power, speed, durability, and haki all improved since Dressrosa. That is a fact. Base Luffy in Dressrosa struggled with Doflamingo whose weaker than Katakuri whose weaker than Kaido. Yet Base Luffy in Wano was able to fight Kaido post Udon. Do you think Base Luffy in Dressrosa can fight Kaido, yes or no?
Vivo Diez
Well-Known Member
That’s a decent point and he did take her on in her specialty.
But I would counter that
1. Luffy is moving his head forward in the clash, he's headbutting too not just standing idle.
2. We have had characters like Queen block Sanji’s DF attack with armament while just standing there and I’m sure you would agree that the gap between Queen and pre dna Sanji is lesser than between Luffy and Ulti.
3. Luffy should have vastly superior armament haki. Armament acts as armour to both blunt and piercing/slashing damage, absorbing the impact and damage. That offsets some of your argument about Ulti having complete advantage in the situation with the momentum as well.
Doubt it. He used a signature attack to cut through Pica’s armament. I think the equivalent should do absolutely nothing to Raid Luffy.
Looks like Luffy would have had to have gone G4 to escape.
Fair
Vivo Diez
Well-Known Member
I mean, during Dressrosa he was more or less equal with Don Chinjao when it came to armament enhanced base punches. But by the end of WCI, albeit still having slightly inferior armament to Katakuri and feeling pain when blocking, he was able to damage and block Katakuri and his special moves to some degree while just in base and using armament.
And the gap between Katakuri and Chinjao is IMMENSE.
GoldenHeart
Born again
Could see Ulti winning tbh
bil02
Well-Known Member
I'm asking for proof because none of the abilities which made Luffy stronger were used against Ulti in the first place lol.
We're talking about base Luffy,no? No advanced haki applications that were used to damage kaido were used against Ulti.
How do we know Luffy used future sight there?
None of those abilities were used by base Luffy against Ulti which is my point in comparing Ulti to Dressrossa Luffy or DR Zoro.
We're talking explicitly about the base version of Luffy which Ulti fought in comparison to DR Base Luffy.
The version of Luffy which Ulti fought isn't anywhere near as strong as the one who fought Kaido,he clearly held back a lot of abilities against Ulti which is once again my point.
Based on?
The only thing Luffy explicitly got his base to "seemingly" improve in was his base stats through seastone training but that is impossible to quantity accurately as there is no way of accurately knowing how much he improved in that aspect.
The base Luffy who fought Ulti can't fight kaido in any capacity imo.
No he can't fight kaido,neither can the base Luffy who fought Ulti since he held back many of his new abilities.
bil02
Well-Known Member
Katakuri used to combine his armament with his devil fruit ability to have the edge over Luffy in their haki clashes but I'm willing to concede Luffy's basic armament increased from Dressrossa to wano but by what amount? Impossible to tell precisely.
Dressrossa Zoro albeit being weaker than Luffy could still do more damage to Ulti going by the nature of his attacks and the quality of his blades in conjunction with CoA for example.
The crazy hacker
Well-Known Member
Zoro wins. Luffy could have stomped Ulti with G2/3 based on his feats against Kaido on the RT. His red hawk and red rock where stronger than pre-udon G4 attacks and he could dodge a bagua from Kaido.
Quipchaque
Fan of the honored ones 🙌🏻
I doubt Ulti stands a ghost of a chance here. She doesn't look any more impressive than Vergo or Pica who are also both monster tanks, haki specialists and just like her possess great attack power. And Zoro would still high-diff them at worst. So yeah Zoro mid to high-diff.
MrAnalogies
I'm just here for the chaos
Why do I have to explain this again for the 3rd time?
Gear 4 Luffy is obviously stronger than Base Luffy. Gear 4 Luffy in the beginning of Wano couldn't put a dent in Kaido. After the Udon training, Base Luffy knocked Kaido down with 1 red roc. Base luffy was stronger than the G4 Luffy at the start of Wano, which means Udon Base Luffy>>>G4 Luffy>>>Base Luffy in DR.
What does this have to do with the fact base Luffy in Wano is stronger than base Luffy in DR?
Luffy faced several strong opponents in between Doflamingo and Ulti: Cracker, Big Mom, Katakuri, etc. He got stronger.
Kaido compliments him for being able to partially dodge it which means he acknowledged Luffy got faster.
You don't have a point.
Base Luffy that fought Ulti was still stronger, faster, and had better haki than the Luffy in DR. You think he's been exactly the same for 3 arcs in a row? Every time Luffy wins difficult battles and moves to the next arc his stats go up.
Luffy was about to use G4 to finish Ulti off. EXPLAIN WHY he would do that if he could just easily beat her in base...?
Now if you deny this then I'm going to cut the conversation short. I'm not arguing with someone ignoring what's stated in the manga.
They're the same fucking person. Literally the same guy. You think Luffy got way stronger in the 5 minutes it took him to run up the stairs to the rooftop? Are you insane?
Luffy didn't use ANY gears when he used red roc on Kaido. That was BASE Luffy, the same BASE Luffy who fought Ulti.
bil02
Well-Known Member
Red roc that dropped kaido was
1) a new move
2) a move that uses an advanced haki application(You flow/Internal destruction)since it damaged kaido.
None of that is relevant to the version of Luffy who faced Ulti since he didn't use it against her.
My definition of base Luffy is also Luffy without any gear but I don't mind taking G2 and G3 into consideration going forward.
He was facing her and her brother simultaneously,she took advantage of an opening to get a grip of Luffy in her zoan form and Luffy needed to go G4 to get out of the grip?
Any advanced armament use would have dispatched her,Red ROC included.
Not denying any of that,Luffy got an observation hakk bloom in that fight,not an armament one lol,that was the whole purpose of that fight.
If he got an armament haki bloom there,feel free to show me where.
Please take a minute to reread our previous convo lmao.
They are the same person sure but Luffy held back all the abilities which made him stronger(Udon training) against Ulti.
This is like saying current Luffy without conquerors coating,Ryuo flow/Internal destruction/Awakening is anywhere near the version who defeated kaido.
You get it now?
Pal Red roc is a G3 attack using Ryuo flow/Internal destruction lol,are you new these concepts or something?
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MrAnalogies
I'm just here for the chaos
The new move red roc isn't going to suddenly be 100x stronger than all of Base Luffy's other attacks. That's not how that works lol. You're pretending Luffy post Udon is exactly the same as DR and that is factually incorrect.
All of base Luffy's stats had jumped up. The Luffy who fought Ulti was stronger than the Luffy in DR. Period.
Then he would have just used advanced armament lol. Or go to G2-3. He decided to go straight to G4. This is nonsense.
This is head cannon nonsense. Luffy got stronger, period. Nowhere is it stated only his observation stats went up. You're making things up.
Nobody said Luffy used every single ability against Ulti. Nobody is saying Luffy made the same amount of effort against Kaido that he did against Ulti, but both were base Luffy. And Ulti did alright fighting base Luffy with impressive power, speed, and durability.
I'm saying the manga stated Luffy gets stronger with each arc. So the base Luffy in Wano is stronger than the base Luffy in DR, period. What abilities/techniques he used against Ulti is irrelevant honestly.
Ok this is actually true. I forgot he used G3.
He wasn't using G2 or G3 when he was able to partially dodge thunder bagua and tanked some of the damage. This proves base Luffy was more durable and faster than G4 Luffy at the start of Wano. Now I can't wait for you to talk your way out of this.