So I will say, it seems like Ultra is trying hard here to paint the picture that I've been fence sitting in this game and hedging my opinions. A lot of my posts seems to be handpicked in order to show Ultra's point of view. So it seems like I'll be defending myself against a lot of that.
Is this a wolf point, though? Prof is trying to WIFOM a wolf's motivation and I'm just reminding him in a game like this, information and abilities can wreck and skew a lot of things. The thing is, Flower did flip anti-town, so Prof saying that it wouldn't make sense for Flower to act like this if she was scum was technically wrong. So me calling out Prof and telling him to keep an open-mind was actually the correct advise given how things turned out.
How is this really hedging, though? I would say that out of everyone in this game, I have the most experience of you two arguing with each other. When you two start to bicker about something that I don't really get in the first place, and then it gets blown out of proportion, leading into you guys bringing up different points from your original argument, I tend to slot that as t/t. So what's not hedging? Saying one of you is scum? Saying both are? What if you guys are actually t/t here? Doesn't that mean I'm right once again? So far these two points you've brought up to shade me have been things that I still could be right about. You call it hedging, with Prof I was being open-minded and here I was just giving you my honest opinion. I don't think you've said Ratchet is scum either, so if you're town, doesn't that mean your interaction with him could still be t/t, meaning I could still be right? Either this is t/t and I'm right, or you're scum, or Ratchet is scum, which neither of us are currently pushing, so it seems like bringing up this post of mine doesn't really win you any points.
This is just a bad point from you. I think that everyone had an opinion on which of the two outed scum they wanted dead first, and with this comment, I'm showing that I chose Soul. I never said to leave Flower at all and that's just disingenious to say. I thought that Flower would have less protection and would be more likely to be a killshot where Soul probably wouldn't be since he had a team to protect him. Lo and behold, Flower was actually shot first, so I didn't need to push her over Soul. You even admit you don't know what my scum motivation is here, but yet still try to suggest something omnibus with it being some utility you don't know of. That's just creating fear and paranoia over me when it's unnecessary.
This is completely not what I was jumping on Ekko for. Nowhere in the post that I respond to does he say you and Ratchet are t/t, so that wasn't what I was responding to. Instead, I was asking Ekko why he thought that you and Soul weren't likely teammates, when Ratchet was someone who made a bit of a case on why you two could be. Ekko literally posted a meme how he didn't read Ratchet's case in that regard, so I found it curious as to why he was saying it didn't seem like you and Soul were mates when I thought Ratchet made some good points on why it could be possible. It wasn't shade on you or trying to be opportunistic (you'll actually realize I've never called you scum this game, just maybe an option to be a mate of Soul's), I was just trying to get some information out of Ekko and a better read on him based on something he said that I disagreed with.
Didn't you have to have a lengthy conversation with Ratchet about how thoughts can progress throughout a game? You vs Ratchet obviously garnered a lot of attention. Oni asked me directly what I thought about you two and I gave my full and honest thoughts. You'll even see at the end of that post that I still think it's a t/t interaction between the two of you. My comment at the end about the percentage chances of you two flipping scum is a hypothetical that IF there is a scum between you two, I think it would be you. There's no setup of a future vote or wagon here Ultra, it's just me giving me unabashed opinion on Ultra vs Ratchet 59. Also, you keep attributing things that you think I should be doing and I'm not, as being scummy. Obviously Flower and Soul were the options at that point in time, so why would a push hard on you when there are other targets that are more worthy? For the record, despite Soul's flip, I don't know how I feel about you, and that should be a kudos to your play and skill, not me trying to hang a future vote on you.
This is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. I never agreed with JW? I said that Prof's point about JW trying to get attention off of Soul gives them some mate equity. However, with Prof's case against JW, he mentioned things about JW potentially having TMI and I disagreed because I felt that was circumstantial at best. And me agreeing with you is giving you credit and not trying to steal your idea as my own; just because someone says something first, doesn't mean no one else can say it. Of course I noticed that JW's activity is already way different in this game than mine. I don't know what that means, though. I know JW is usually a more inactive scum, but him being different is something to note. I don't know what JW's town meta is, so him acting differently this early is something that is noted, for better or for worse. Like, are you trying to suss me here because you think JW is town and because I saw him firsthand as scum in my game, I should know he's playing different thus is a different alignment in this game?
Why do you think it's a scummy thought process? In a game like this, we can't trust all information straight off the bat. I think that Flower claiming an ability was pretty obvious she was trying to make it look like she was Matt, and I kind of didn't believe that to be the truth. So I doubted her initial results on Soul and thought she was scum trying to push someone. With that mindset, I took a peak at the people who voted for Soul right after Flower claimed her info. As you'll note, I never actually brought that conversation up as a main point of mine, just something I commented on, because I didn't really think those votes were relevant, thus why I didn't make a big deal out of it. So here you're made then, because I didn't elaborate on me saying why Mitch's vote pinged me, since I said JW's vote was a non-factor to me, so that doesn't need further explanation.
I mean, considering a completely accepted people telling me Kvothe is town, how is that hedging there? I guess maybe you can say I'm on the fence about Ekko, but he's a damn tricky player and deserves caution and attention. All you've pointed out is me making me way through my thoughts and reads. I'm not as apt in SRM to come out firing off the hip like I feel you're used to, and I can't help but feel you're basing what I should look like on that.
So turning directions, is there any legit reason not to vote Soul here? We know Flower is a hostile indie, so her information is still probably good? I still haven't read anything yet that would suggest we don't vote Soul.
With all that said, Flower being sure on charles is about as damning as it can get.
I feel like there is a lot of false confidence here and you're trying a little too hard to make it look like I've been blown out or something.A good last effort. Now you're actually trying, but the record shows that you weren't before, and it's going to be hard to just sweep that under the bed.
I mean, in a SRM game, things are going to be majorly dictated by abilities and actions. We had Flower and Soul get outed D1, which takes up a lot of focus. I feel like you keep saying that I've done nothing in this game, but I focused on what was in front of me. I feel outside of your interaction with Ratchet, both of our games have been heavily around discussing Flower and Soul, and I don't necessarily see anything wrong about that.You say I'm cherry picking your post but make no attempt to show anything to the contrary of my assessment that your posts are mostly hedging. I invite anyone to read your ISO and come to their own conclusion.
Okay, this is already a point, though, that you've said you have no idea what my scum motivation would be. I feel like you coming back to this, already admitting you really don't know what wolf me is doing by saying this stuff to Prof, means you don't really have a point here, and just want to bring it up again in an attempt to make me look scummy. Scum wasn't legit, neither was Flower, so there's no point in defending either of them really, which I was advising Prof not to do.Prof wasn't arguing in Flowers defence, he was arguing in favor of their evidence on Soul being legitimate and you just cast some blanket doubt saying "this game be too crazy yo"
What are you talking about? I said that you would be more likely to be scum than Ratchet, to Oni, not in response to Ratchet. I'm still not sure why you're hung up on this point when I haven't actively been calling you scum. I feel like there's this paranoia in you that I've somehow set you up as a future vote of mine and that just isn't the truth. You feel like you're on edge a little bit, trying to hedge any people that might be against you in the future. I don't think I reached the conclusion of you two being t/t too quickly when again, I've literally seen this argument a hundred times and it usually turns out t/t. Could I be wrong? Sure. But you're not admitting you're scum, and you haven't called Ratchet scum, so what's wrong with me calling you two t/t?Calling us t/t in a vacuum isn't *that* big of a deal, but the fact that you moved me into "more scummy but still town" territory the moment Ratchet gave you an excuse to, is not a good look. I think you arrived at us being t/t way too quickly and we're also too quick to backpedal if just a bit. That you didn't commit to scum reading me all the way is not a point in your favor, if anything it's the opposite.
See, this is what I'm talking about, you keep sussing me for things you think I should be doing. I didn't feel like it was necessary to explain at that moment why I preferred one scum of another, but the fact is, both were scum, so does it really matter what order it was that I chose? I thought that Flower would get yeeted and that Soul might be protected by his mates.Your stated preference of Soul over Flower was because of their info being reliable or something, you didn't mention anything about this role speculation.
But again, this wasn't a slight or shade at you, this was me wondering why Ekko said something when I thought there had been good points made by Ratchet why you and Soul could be mates. I think you keep thinking I'm calling you scum when I say you could be Soul's mate, which is totally fair. However, all I mean by that is that it's a possibility that I'm thinking of. At this point, I don't think the mate equity you might have with Soul is enough for me to ignore your thread play which I feel has been townie. Do I think you could be mates with Soul? Yeah, I do. But gun to head I'd probably call you town for your play.I can believe you were making an attempt to get info out of Ekko there, but the principle issue is that you come out of nowhere with a new perspective that Ratchet has valid points on me, without elaboration, and used that perspective to question another player, it seems disingenuous on your end.
But I don't really have any confident town reads at this moment. I think it's false to say I should be able to give more confident reads on my townies. Why do you think that?You should be able to give more confident reads on your townies, maybe you didn't actually intend to go after me Day 2, but your reluctance to just say something simple like "he's probably town" reeks of agenda, false dichotomies are a great way of keeping a player still on the table without making the commitment of scum reading that player.
Ultra, you just happened to say what I was thinking before I could say it. I can't help that I'm not around or sleeping when you make that comment. Of course I know that JW is playing differently since it's pretty obvious to anyone who played in my game and is playing in this game. I don't know you think me agreeing with your comment, and giving you credit for it, makes me scum? I feel like you're once again expecting me to do something, like comment immediately on the difference on JW's play since I was host in his last game. The fact is, in games like this, I spend most of my time catching up and making sure I can be informed of what's going on, and that sometimes disallows me the chance to be the first one to say something despite me thinking it. Do you think you should be the only one then who is allowed to say JW is playing differently from before?Your lack of exposure to JW's town meta is being used as a crutch here, you don't need it to know he's playing very differently. And while that doesn't make it unquestionable, I think it reflects badly that you had to have me observe that for you.
But at the time I went and did that, the information on the table was doubtful. I didn't initially believe Flower's claim and thought she was going after Soul because she promised she would at the end of last game. Again, I never brought those voters to the table because as I was making a list, I realized that most of the voters were NAI. I think Mitch was the only noteworthy voter of Soul after Flower's claim, and I explained why a bit in my last response to you. There was like, three or four votes on Soul right after the reveal, and I really didn't think it was necessary to bring it up as a point on it's own. It's only after Mitch was mentioned as being suss, that I thought of his Soul vote and made the comment that I did.It's a scummy perspective because you are first and foremost, by your own admission, concerned with who you can push that voted SK and not with resolving the alignment of SK yourself. Is your position that you weren't sure about him being scum supposed to help you here?
Is assessing players not trying to solve them? I'm actively taking in what people are saying and doing and trying to figure out their alignment based on that. I may not be making as many comments or asking as many questions as before, but I'm still reading every post and trying to figure out what's going on in this game. Again, in a game of this nature, and with me back to work, I can't always been the leading poster like I am in the summer when I'm not working. I guess I can work on vocalizing some of my other opinions that I have when I make posts, but really I am making the posts that I am because I'm just not in the same mindset as when I have all the free time in the world.You're not making your way through your reads organically though, you're barely making any play observations and very much seem like you are *assessing* players rather than *solving* them. There is a lot of information and assumptions you bring up when questioned that I'm wondering why you are holding on to instead of vocalizing it and giving town better direction.
So my explanation is kind of in the above post. In the summer, I'm literally a bum and not working and have all the time in the world to read the game, posts thoughts, ISO, go hard at people, etc. I feel like that's the expectation that you have of me right now but the truth is, when I am working, I just don't do all the extra things that I do when I'm off work. So you're right, I have interesting in this game, and I'm trying my best to read and post what I can. I've read every post in this game so I know what's going on, but I just can't over commit like I usually do, which is the difference here.Now that I've addressed your points, I'll address what you haven't acknowledged here, which is that I've seen you town too much for me to let this soft shit from you slide. What's your explanation for you being so off? It clearly isn't a case of low interest or low investment from you, no, you've got too much of a grasp on this game to excuse your complete lack of presence.
More shade. I voted for Soul as well. Or would you have liked to see me vote outside of the Soul and Flower controversy? Now Oni, who if you remember, caught Soul, said before he fucking died, that charles was Flower 2.0. So should I vote elsewhere then? It really seem like you're trying to place unfair expectations on me here.Finally, I'm pretty certain this is the first vote X has casted all game. Very apprehensive, especially from someone who has no issue throwing around their vote as a pressuring tool.
How do you want me to react to two outed people? Soul wasn't even around when he was outed and I got enough of Flower bitching about the unfairness of games at the end of my own game. Why would I want to engage with that again?Here's something I'm going to call a "scum utility" read.
About 1000 posts into the game this is all X has to say about the Soul and Flower situation. No reaction or commentary on them getting outted, just straight down to business. No emotional component of amusement, no chastising Flower for blaming the set up for their failure... because his thinking is strictly practical. Because there's nothing really left to say in regards to their alignment (both are outted), it is outside the boundary of X's interest. And genuine reactions are hard to fake. So he just acts like a reptilian here.
I was saying it wouldn’t make sense for Flower to be lying as scum about the results, not that it didn’t make sense for her to be scum with results.The thing is, Flower did flip anti-town, so Prof saying that it wouldn't make sense for Flower to act like this if she was scum was technically wrong. So me calling out Prof and telling him to keep an open-mind was actually the correct advise given how things turned out.
How do you want me to react to two outed people? Soul wasn't even around when he was outed and I got enough of Flower bitching about the unfairness of games at the end of my own game. Why would I want to engage with that again?
Ultra, I think you have some really harsh and unfair expectations how you think I should be playing right now, and since I'm not acting and saying the things you think I should be, you're scum reading me for it.
We have three outed scum and one outed invest in this game and Ultra wants me to lead my own discussion and vote on mechanically uncleared players.
I was saying it wouldn’t make sense for Flower to be lying as scum about the results, not that it didn’t make sense for her to be scum with results.
But I think you made pretty good counter points on the other stuff.
Ultra’s point about you wanting SK > Flower especially doesn’t make sense as an argument. I don’t think that’s alignment indicative either way. It’s by far his worst point imo.
I still think there’s a lens where some of the stuff you said to me about the Flower/SK stuff early on could have been an attempt to pull me off of SK and onto Flower before SK’s position was hopeless, but it’s circumstantial. You’re in the POE for me still of possible SK teammates but so is Ultra lol. Which makes your back and forth especially noteworthy as we go.
I still think JW is the most likely SK teammate right now and Ultra’s soft defenses of JW are noted if JW flips scum down the road.