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DatClone vs. SM Jiraiya

Who wins?


  • Total voters
    37
  • This poll will close: .

Shazam

⚡⚡⚡
There's nothing implying Naruto was moving particularly fast against Muu, given that his Shunshin > his chakra arm in speed and his chakra arm already blitzed Muu. We don't even know where he was coming from, if he was coming from far away Muu would have the ability to perceive and react in time.

Muu didn't dodge KCM Naruto's chakra arm strike though, he completely failed to do so actually even though the attack came from a distance away. Gaara did literally squat other than stop Naruto from falling.

So you admit Naruto landed FRS on Ay3 successfully without him being able to evade it? It was merely a matter of range, and if Naruto can blitz a Raikage in close range, Jiraiya won't really have a good time.

Mu didn't anticipate the chakra arm at all, he was charging up Jinton. This was made very clear actually. Check the scan. Just make sure you don't omit details like needing help in the first place

Yes Naruto was able to land on the 3rd attempt. And it wasn't a blitz, that term is so loosely used I don't even pay attention to it anymore. He was right behind A3 when he caught FRS and slammed it into him. I don't think we ever seen a clone of his use Shunshin.

Jiraiya won't be fighting clone Naruto up close, A3's only trick is to be quick, durable and run at you. Far cry from how Jiraiya fights.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
Mu didn't anticipate the chakra arm at all, he was charging up Jinton

So, in other words, Naruto attacked Muu faster than A) Muu could attack him and B) Muu could do anything but gape.

We call that a blitz.

This was made very clear actually

Actually, it was made very clear that Muu thought his Jinton would be faster than Naruto's KCM chakra arm.



Of course, Naruto proved Muu very wrong...by outspeeding, even blitzing him.

Yes Naruto was able to land on the 3rd attempt

1st attempt at close range, however, and there Naruto dominated the CQC specialist in his own field (he does it again in SM).

And it wasn't a blitz, that term is so loosely used I don't even pay attention to it anymore

Says the guy that called Jiraiya kicking Human Path in the face a blitz lmao :russ

The difference, of course, being that KCM Naruto or rather his chakra arm actually crossed a significant distance to hit Muu, SM Jiraiya merely counterattacked Human Path once the latter was already in his face. DItto for the Raikage.

He was right behind A3 when he caught FRS and slammed it into him.

Yes, that's what we call a blitz.

Ay3 tried to run from Naruto, and Naruto caught up to and hit him.

I don't think we ever seen a clone of his use Shunshin

So KCM Naruto's clone caught up to Ay3 and blasted him from the rear by...walking at regular speed, is it?

Even though Ay3 under Kabuto's control was actively running away from Naruto and trying to evade his moves?

Jiraiya won't be fighting clone Naruto up close

Ay3 wasn't fighting clone Naruto up close, he was RUNNING from clone Naruto. For all the good it did him...

Neither was Muu.

A3's only trick is to be quick, durable and run at you

...?

Ay3 didn't run AT Naruto in KCM, he ran away from Naruto in KCM. He still got hit.

Far cry from how Jiraiya fights

I don't think you get it, bro. Jiraiya doesn't have a CHOICE.

SM Jiraiya is not faster than Ay3, they're equally fast (and many would say I'm being generous to Jiraiya).

You could argue SM Jiraiya's danger sensing might give him overall superiority to Ay3 in combat speed, I suppose...although he lacks feats with it, certainly any feats that demonstrably put him above Ay3.
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
And Naruto also blitzed Muu mid-sentence with that chakra arm, not unlike the time Itachi blitzed Orochimaru with Totsuka or SM Naruto blitzed Asura (which resembles Minato blitzing Obito years ago, basically a nigh perfect imitation in depiction).

KCM Naruto, even as a 1/13 clone, is a fast, fast boi. He's faster than SM Jiraiya for sure, and not by a small amount.

I voted for Jiraiya admittedly, fun fact - but after thinking about Naruto's speed and matchup considerations, think Naruclone is better here.
 

Sparks

Repopulating History
And Naruto also blitzed Muu mid-sentence with that chakra arm, not unlike the time Itachi blitzed Orochimaru with Totsuka or SM Naruto blitzed Asura (which resembles Minato blitzing Obito years ago, basically a nigh perfect imitation in depiction).

KCM Naruto, even as a 1/13 clone, is a fast, fast boi. He's faster than SM Jiraiya for sure, and not by a small amount.

I voted for Jiraiya admittedly, fun fact - but after thinking about Naruto's speed and matchup considerations, think Naruclone is better here.
People really underestimate just how vast Naruto's chakra reserves are at this point in the story.

Despite being at 1/13 th chakra, that Naruto has enough chakra for a Planetary Rasengan/chakra arms against Muu, Shunshin/FRS against Ei3, and the necessary chakra for a mini TBB (greater in chakra cost than FRS by portrayal).

Meanwhile, pre-coop KCM Naruto has his Base chakra drained while the chakra cloak is in use. So at less than 1/13 th of Base Naruto's reserves, he still has enough chakra to enter SM (you need to have access to enormous chakra volumes to not be overtaken by nature energy in the first place) and stats high enough to dodge and counter Ei3.

Go on to after Madara is revived, and that same clone at less than 1/13 th of Base Naruto's reserves goes on to split its chakra in 3. Two clones are able to form a COR, while the third, at less than 1/39 th of Base Naruto's reserves, is still able to enter SM and form at least one FRS.
 

Kyu

~ █▬█ █ ▀█▀ ~
When your student is so much stronger than you that a weakened doppelganger of his would give you all you can handle.


Edit: 21-9 in favor of the clone? :lmao
 

MHA massive fan

Well-Known Member
Its like when people discuss these clones they forget the jutsu of the opponent exists and think they'll just stand there and let themselves die. Anyway, Jiraiya has a variety of Fire Release jutsu such as Goemon he can use to devour the Rasenshuriken so it can't even reach him. I'm not sure what makes you think the clone can execute it so much faster than any other jutsu though.
Feats is why
Jiraiya fastest possible jutsu from behind animal path was easier for the paths to react to than SM naruto throwing FRS from much further away

that’s why
 
Dam the funny thing is I was told no one would agree with me that the clone wins

its hilarious
Bet the next thing I will hear is the 21 people are avid Sannin haters while the 9 are intelligent and are the only ones on the forum who can construct a proper argument
I love the sannin, but there's no way jman is gonna do anything to a kage bunshin with kcm.
Matchup maker should have a think about what they want to debate here.
 

Shazam

⚡⚡⚡
When your student is so much stronger than you that a weakened doppelganger of his would give you all you can handle.


Edit: 21-9 in favor of the clone? :lmao

If this is so true, that just means this "weakened doppelganger " is beating the likes of A3, Mu, Gengetsu, Living Itachi (likely), Sage Naruto, MS Sasuke etc.

You guys are acting like since you falsely place KCM Clone above Sage Jiraiya that it means Jiraiya is weak.

When it just means you're overrating him or not understanding where it ultimately places this clone amongst others who most consider High Kage as it is.

When Sannin hate/downplay completely clouds your ability to think clearly

:catface
 

Shazam

⚡⚡⚡
Feats is why
Jiraiya fastest possible jutsu from behind animal path was easier for the paths to react to than SM naruto throwing FRS from much further away

that’s why

His feats include getting off paneled, seemingly being out performed by Chojuro, needing help on several occasions, having its life saved, needing the perfect intel, not using shunshin, showing little to no durability.

All the while ignoring that this would ultimately place KCM Naruto leagues above Hokage Minato who by feats stalemates A&B with A himself barely on the bridge of being a High Kage himself

But yes, let's twist the narrative because of our dislike for the Sannin
 

MHA massive fan

Well-Known Member
His feats include getting off paneled, seemingly being out performed by Chojuro, needing help on several occasions, having its life saved, needing the perfect intel, not using shunshin, showing little to no durability.
None of this applies to datclone aptly named
All the while ignoring that this would ultimately place KCM Naruto leagues above Hokage Minato who by feats stalemates A&B with A himself barely on the bridge of being a High Kage himself

But yes, let's twist the narrative because of our dislike for the Sannin
Ultimately what you fail to realise is narjto clone performance was so much better than the other clones because the original hadn’t started fighting obito

the scans we see of the other clones poor performance is when narjto had started fighting objto

we know Madara already told hashirama his clones were shit weak( weak enough for him to sit down in V2 susanoo and beat them ) because hashirama was focusing too much chakra in his original body

Naruto is no different this would explain the difference between datclone and the others

perhaps stop whining like a woman and read what I am saying . Datclone> any other KCm clone naruto used
 

Shazam

⚡⚡⚡
None of this applies to datclone aptly named

It literally does. All of the clones are the same. And carry the same percentage of chakra divides amongst them

Ultimately what you fail to realise is narjto clone performance was so much better than the other clones because the original hadn’t started fighting obito

the scans we see of the other clones poor performance is when narjto had started fighting objto

we know Madara already told hashirama his clones were shit weak( weak enough for him to sit down in V2 susanoo and beat them ) because hashirama was focusing too much chakra in his original body

Naruto is no different this would explain the difference between datclone and the others

perhaps stop whining like a woman and read what I am saying . Datclone> any other KCm clone naruto used

In that case you aren't saying that all the clones are at "that level" and just one in particular?
 

MHA massive fan

Well-Known Member
It literally does. All of the clones are the same. And carry the same percentage of chakra divides amongst them
This is hilariously false as shown . If the original is focusing too much of his own chakra while fighting the clones suffer . Do you not recall Madara saying this to hashirama . Do you also forget tobirama likened naruto sharing his chakra with the alliance to what happens with clones in regards to resonating ?
In that case you aren't saying that all the clones are at "that level" and just one in particular?
Yes I am specifically saying that clone performed better than all others I suspect it’s because
Naruto the original was not fighting himself when that clone engaged A3
The scans that we see of the other clones naruto was already mid battle which is why those clones performance was rubbish

The very fact that Madara can sit down in V2 and defeat several hashirama clones is clearly indicative enough considering Madara specifically mentioned the fact that hashirama was putting too much chakra into his original body and leaving little to nothing left for the clones which is why they were shit tier
 

Shazam

⚡⚡⚡
This is hilariously false as shown . If the original is focusing too much of his own chakra while fighting the clones suffer . Do you not recall Madara saying this to hashirama . Do you also forget tobirama likened naruto sharing his chakra with the alliance to what happens with clones in regards to resonating ?

Yes I am specifically saying that clone performed better than all others I suspect it’s because
Naruto the original was not fighting himself when that clone engaged A3
The scans that we see of the other clones naruto was already mid battle which is why those clones performance was rubbish

The very fact that Madara can sit down in V2 and defeat several hashirama clones is clearly indicative enough considering Madara specifically mentioned the fact that hashirama was putting too much chakra into his original body and leaving little to nothing left for the clones which is why they were shit tier

Show me this scan of Madara's implications of Hashiramas clone
 

MHA massive fan

Well-Known Member
Show me this scan of Madara's implications of Hashiramas clone
See below
I accept your concession



Also why would clones be called weak distractions if they shared the exact same amount of chakra as the original ? Kishi retconned that shit time ago

when kakashi creates one clone that clone is not as strong as he is , unless you think he gets twice as weak as before creating the clone .

in part 1 no doubt it was said clones share equal chakra to the original kishi changed his mind on that eons ago
 
KCM works by shelving Naruto’s chakra and counting to and using the portion he stole from Kurama . While this is happening Naruto’s chakra is being drained at a set rate and if it gets to zero he dies.

Clone also connect to that power source and use it at their own discretion while in KCM . The Clones are NOT using Naruto’s chakra as that’s not how KCM works . The reason Hachibi discourages Naruto from using clones is because Kurama drains at a set rate while in Naruto uses his chakra and thus dividing your chakra is a easy way to die. The more connections the easier it is for large chunks of Naruto’s chakra to be taken while KCM is in use. Kurama not draining Naruto to death is why we have KCM clones running around in the War.

The trade off to this that the clones all have equal opportunity to draw chakra from the KCM pool as needed. There isn’t set amount of chakra the clone possesses in KCM because he’s not using the chakra Naruto used to create him as that is shelved . He’s using his access to Kurama’s chakra . So it’s not 1/13th of the original’s power as there isn’t a requirement for an equal division of power .

Best way to think of it is as 13 people sharing a giant milkshake with each having a straw in the shake . Everyone Is getting some but if 1 decides to take more by pulling at a higher rate the division of shake naturally becomes unbalanced and potentially even vastly so. KCM Minato shows us that you can have almost zero chakra and be in KCM so the floor is really low .

TLDR- Just because Datclone is a clone doesn’t mean he necessarily has to operate at a set level inferior to the original
 

Gulash

Well-Known Member
Feats is why
Jiraiya fastest possible jutsu from behind animal path was easier for the paths to react to than SM naruto throwing FRS from much further away

that’s why
Doesnt matter if it was from behind cause animal saw it with shared vision.
Also animal who does not need blood to summon,he just need to clap his hands,could do just that in time to block.He couldnt evade.
So why you troll like this if you want people to take you seriously?
 

Shazam

⚡⚡⚡
KCM works by shelving Naruto’s chakra and counting to and using the portion he stole from Kurama . While this is happening Naruto’s chakra is being drained at a set rate and if it gets to zero he dies.

Clone also connect to that power source and use it at their own discretion while in KCM . The Clones are NOT using Naruto’s chakra as that’s not how KCM works . The reason Hachibi discourages Naruto from using clones is because Kurama drains at a set rate while in Naruto uses his chakra and thus dividing your chakra is a easy way to die. The more connections the easier it is for large chunks of Naruto’s chakra to be taken while KCM is in use. Kurama not draining Naruto to death is why we have KCM clones running around in the War.

The trade off to this that the clones all have equal opportunity to draw chakra from the KCM pool as needed. There isn’t set amount of chakra the clone possesses in KCM because he’s not using the chakra Naruto used to create him as that is shelved . He’s using his access to Kurama’s chakra . So it’s not 1/13th of the original’s power as there isn’t a requirement for an equal division of power .

Best way to think of it is as 13 people sharing a giant milkshake with each having a straw in the shake . Everyone Is getting some but if 1 decides to take more by pulling at a higher rate the division of shake naturally becomes unbalanced and potentially even vastly so. KCM Minato shows us that you can have almost zero chakra and be in KCM so the floor is really low .

TLDR- Just because Datclone is a clone doesn’t mean he necessarily has to operate at a set level inferior to the original

You're essentially saying that "Datclone " can be just as the original would be.
 

MHA massive fan

Well-Known Member
KCM works by shelving Naruto’s chakra and counting to and using the portion he stole from Kurama . While this is happening Naruto’s chakra is being drained at a set rate and if it gets to zero he dies.

Clone also connect to that power source and use it at their own discretion while in KCM . The Clones are NOT using Naruto’s chakra as that’s not how KCM works . The reason Hachibi discourages Naruto from using clones is because Kurama drains at a set rate while in Naruto uses his chakra and thus dividing your chakra is a easy way to die. The more connections the easier it is for large chunks of Naruto’s chakra to be taken while KCM is in use. Kurama not draining Naruto to death is why we have KCM clones running around in the War.

The trade off to this that the clones all have equal opportunity to draw chakra from the KCM pool as needed. There isn’t set amount of chakra the clone possesses in KCM because he’s not using the chakra Naruto used to create him as that is shelved . He’s using his access to Kurama’s chakra . So it’s not 1/13th of the original’s power as there isn’t a requirement for an equal division of power .

Best way to think of it is as 13 people sharing a giant milkshake with each having a straw in the shake . Everyone Is getting some but if 1 decides to take more by pulling at a higher rate the division of shake naturally becomes unbalanced and potentially even vastly so. KCM Minato shows us that you can have almost zero chakra and be in KCM so the floor is really low .

TLDR- Just because Datclone is a clone doesn’t mean he necessarily has to operate at a set level inferior to the original
The amount of sense in this explanation is too much
Thank you

also we can see from the below


Putting too much power into the original would make the clones weaker than normal
 

Aegon Targaryen

The Shield That Guards The Realm of Men
The trade off to this that the clones all have equal opportunity to draw chakra from the KCM pool as needed

Based on what evidence?

KCM Naruto being 13x as strong as SM Jiraiya isn't as absurd as it sounds. In Naruto, quantity and teamwork can and does go a long way in combating quality. KCM Naruto is far above SM Naruto, and SM Naruto already surpassed J-Man by a significant margin. We know the Sannin fighting together are 3x as strong as any one, making the combined Sannin 9x as strong as Jiraiya alone. 13x isn't far above 9x, so the Sannin together are close in strength to KCM Naruto alone - something many people might not find unreasonable.

Sakura and Chiyo together gave Sasori a very good fight, even though neither alone could even beat Hiruko both curbstomped it together and held off the Third Kazekage puppet, beating it outright with prepped antidote support.

Five Kage fighting together managed to annihilate 25 Susano'o clones even though none of them could defeat five Susano'o clones alone. Overall, teamwork in Naruto is not additive, but multiplicative, and in that case, KCM Naruto is 13x as strong as an individual Kage, but not actually equal to 13 Kages fighting together as allies and empowering each other actively.
 
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Shazam

⚡⚡⚡
See below
I accept your concession



Also why would clones be called weak distractions if they shared the exact same amount of chakra as the original ? Kishi retconned that shit time ago

when kakashi creates one clone that clone is not as strong as he is , unless you think he gets twice as weak as before creating the clone .

in part 1 no doubt it was said clones share equal chakra to the original kishi changed his mind on that eons ago

Then why not just make a thread of KCM Naruto vs Jiraiya rather than calling it DatClone if the argument here is that Naruto is going to be all but the same thing as his normal self?

Makes no sense
 
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