Bleach power, feats and lore discussion

lol 4th dimension reiatsu

Well-Known Member
Besides, it hasn't been only once that an actual size for Seireitei has been brought up in-source before here in this thread but it's been ignored for...reasons (because pixel-scaling is done when there's no hints of an an size for something and it has to be estimated).:geg

You mean the 200 miles movie thing?


If i were to sum it up the entire battle between all these characters were fighting in Seireitei and the Royal Realm. Like if you say all these captains and sternritters and espada are country level but ignore the battlefield was confined to what we see as a city (Seireitei) and at most a medium sized country, it's insane to suggest that the weakest of the major characters are captain level and that anyone is doing stuff at galaxy or universe scale energy output.

That's standard shonen powercreep where the stakes get raised every arc.
 

monkeybananas

Well-Known Member
That's standard shonen powercreep where the stakes get raised every arc.
:giogio2

Bleach is a bit different actually cause uh

FB < SS ~ HM < TYBW part 1 <<< Deicide < TYBW part 2

Anyways you dont have to agree with that specifically^, but the point is that bleach arcs don't follow the same kind of powercreep. The power levels get reset. Ichigo's got reset for example after deicide, and it took him like 150 chapters to get that power back, and all the way till the end of the series to even show that power.

We don't see anything on the level of Dangai Ichigo vs Monster Aizen again till like the last 100 chapters
 

lol 4th dimension reiatsu

Well-Known Member
Bleach is a bit different actually cause uh

FB < SS ~ HM < TYBW part 1 <<< Deicide < TYBW part 2

Anyways you dont have to agree with that specifically^, but the point is that bleach arcs don't follow the same kind of powercreep. The power levels get reset. Ichigo's got reset for example after deicide, and it took him like 150 chapters to get that power back, and all the way till the end of the series to even show that power.

We don't see anything on the level of Dangai Ichigo vs Monster Aizen again till like the last 100 chapters

There's powercreep whit each final villain aside from Ginjo, the stakes on each arc also increase that way.

Just because they fight in the Seireitei it doesn't mean the whole manga's setting isn't at stake, that is just like near every manga where the universe is at stake but the action is confined to a city or planet.
 

monkeybananas

Well-Known Member
Just because they fight in the Seireitei it doesn't mean the whole manga's setting isn't at stake, that is just like near every manga where the universe is at stake but the action is confined to a city or planet.
But there's a very clear limit for what they're allowed to affect. The individual captains' battles pretty much never bled over to another captain's battles unless they explicitly travelled there for some reason.

Their influence was limited within the reach of the Seireitei itself, to imply they're all country level is just preposterous.

The first example to break this trend was Yamamoto vs Royd, and his influence actually (according to him and Unohana) extended past Seireitei to general Soul Society. Shikai Zaraki and Gremmy were the second examples to break that trend the influence from that battle actually affected the rest of the Seireitei, and even then it was only the Seireitei.

That kind of influence bleeding over is very apparent that these guys and theirs powers are limited in scope.

Anyways the next set to break the trend are Yhwach, Ichibei, and Hogyoku Aizen. Unlike Yamamoto they all have cross realm influence. This doesn't make them multiversal levels of energy output even if they can affect the entire "universe" at a time. Ichibei isn't going to suck the darkness out of sagitarrius A* much less m87's black hole. When Yamamoto and Unohana are afraid of Soul Society burning up they're not suggesting that Yamamoto is gonna burn up the universe past the hyperion supercluster 11 billion light years away with a miniscule fraction of the sun's power. That's stupid, and it takes an extremely liberal and downright idiotic interpretation of statements and terms and a whole lot of equivocation in order to believe it.
 
You mean the 200 miles movie thing?
Yea, although I'd take what's said in the novel about the circumference of Seireitei priority over what's mentioned about it in the movies (It's not extremely important but it's a canonicity thing.).

It's just a hint for Seireitei's actual size.

People only pixel-scaled it because it was unknown what Seireitei's actual size was at the time.
 

Daio

Well-Known Member
Canonicity is a misunderstood concept. What's important is that Kubo essentially approved of that statement.
 

lol 4th dimension reiatsu

Well-Known Member
But there's a very clear limit for what they're allowed to affect. The individual captains' battles pretty much never bled over to another captain's battles unless they explicitly travelled there for some reason.

Their influence was limited within the reach of the Seireitei itself, to imply they're all country level is just preposterous.

The first example to break this trend was Yamamoto vs Royd, and his influence actually (according to him and Unohana) extended past Seireitei to general Soul Society. Shikai Zaraki and Gremmy were the second examples to break that trend the influence from that battle actually affected the rest of the Seireitei, and even then it was only the Seireitei.

That kind of influence bleeding over is very apparent that these guys and theirs powers are limited in scope.

Anyways the next set to break the trend are Yhwach, Ichibei, and Hogyoku Aizen. Unlike Yamamoto they all have cross realm influence. This doesn't make them multiversal levels of energy output even if they can affect the entire "universe" at a time. Ichibei isn't going to suck the darkness out of sagitarrius A* much less m87's black hole. When Yamamoto and Unohana are afraid of Soul Society burning up they're not suggesting that Yamamoto is gonna burn up the universe past the hyperion supercluster 11 billion light years away with a miniscule fraction of the sun's power. That's stupid, and it takes an extremely liberal and downright idiotic interpretation of statements and terms and a whole lot of equivocation in order to believe it.

Sure but in the Zaraki example for instance you know there's other character just as strong but their actual feats are building to MCB level, shonen simply can't portray each attack with the supposed AoE it should have given the whole scenario should break apart.

All the high end feats only affect the soul king related characters who are far stronger than anyone else, the main feat is the original world being divided, that feat is equivalent to whatever the overall universe of the manga is.


Yea, although I'd take what's said in the novel about the circumference of Seireitei priority over what's mentioned about it in the movies (It's not extremely important but it's a canonicity thing.).

It's just a hint for Seireitei's actual size.

People only pixel-scaled it because it was unknown what Seireitei's actual size was at the time.

What is said in the novel exactly?

All I remember is that it confirms there's several mountains in the Seireitei.
 

monkeybananas

Well-Known Member
Shonen simply can't portray each attack with the supposed AoE it should have given the whole scenario should break apart
That's not what I expect. I expect some sort of effect. Soi Fon blowing BG9 up with her bankai for example, wasn't shown anywhere or referenced anywhere else other than the tiny bubble of Seireitei they fought in.

When Yamamoto went Bankai he evaporated stolen Daiguren Hyorinmaru from half the Seireitei away. When he ended it all the evaporated moisture came down as rain. That is impact.

If i were to take his statement at face value I'd easily be comfortable calling Yamamoto lifewiping level (eventually).

When Gremmy summoned a meteor everyone in Seireitei took notice, Kenpachi smashed that meteor. That is impact

I'm comfortable calling these guys country level. Maybe not USA level, but maybe like Switzerland level or Tokyo level. Easily.

Ichibei stole 100 nights from Soul Society's future in order to power his death mausoleum attack; that's 100 nights just straight up gone. Also even in Shikai he was shown taking darkness from stuff in Soul Society and outside of Seireitei.
If Aizen had fired his reiatsu cannon and brought down the royal palace everything would've changed.
Yhwach changed the entire setting by bringing up Vandenreich to the royal realm.

This is impact. And I'm easily comfortable calling these guys cross-realm level (Ichigo scales to Yhwach and Aizen, and this also assumes Aizen's words can be taken at face value)
All the high end feats only affect the soul king related characters who are far stronger than anyone else, the main feat is the original world being divided, that feat is equivalent to whatever the overall universe of the manga is.
Yeah well I'm only gonna deal with the worlds part of this. I'm under no illusions that Yhwach collapsing the three worlds would've forcibly destroyed the M87 equivalent in the world of the living and the trillions of stars in soul society's M87 equivalent and Hueco Mundo's M87 equivalent (if it even has one).

Such a thing simply can't be assumed. And given what the manga has shown and told us, it's only done at a planet level and that's the general level these characters are at.

Context: M87 is an ellipitical galaxy (the oldest and largest type) 54 million light years away. It contains an estimated trillion+ stars
 
If the novel didn't give any hints about the diameter of Seireitei (must have misunderstood), then there's still this in

It's something that should be taken accounted for since it's a clue for Seireitei's actual size (and because artist depiction of sizes can contradict with what's been said by different characters in the story).
 
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monkeybananas

Well-Known Member
If the novel didn't give any hints about the diameter of Seireitei (must have misunderstood), then there's still this in

It's something that should be taken accounted for since it's a clue for Seireitei's actual size (and because artist depiction of sizes can contradict with what's been said by different characters in the story).
This one isn't reliable.



Here's a timetable for rescuing Rukia that Yoruichi gives. Right I know they planned to enter through the gate. But think about this for a second.

If a quarter of the circumference is given, you can get the radius. Traveling from gate to radius can therefore be measured 10*4/pi/2 = 6.37 days. That's how many days you'd need to get to the center. Travelling any measurable distance across Seireitei would take days.

So Yoruichi making that excuse for not going to another gate is BS, since even if you didn't have to go through another gate you'd still have to travel at least 6 days to get from the gate to the Senzaikyuu and the entire timetable for Seireitei is given as 2 days. This isn't just reflected in the plan but also the fact that people keep travelling around the place including human Orihime and unquincified Uryu in way less time than a week. They get from landmark to landmark in the same day.

Her statement is contradicted, basically. It's probably still huge but I would actually consider 600 ri diameter to be more reliable than 10 days quarter circumference. I don't consider either to be reliable though. Then again, neither are the Seireitei panoramas we get.
 

lol 4th dimension reiatsu

Well-Known Member
That's not what I expect. I expect some sort of effect.

Well that's just not how manga works, see Dangai Ichigo's pitiful feats.


Yeah well I'm only gonna deal with the worlds part of this. I'm under no illusions that Yhwach collapsing the three worlds would've forcibly destroyed the M87 equivalent in the world of the living and the trillions of stars in soul society's M87 equivalent and Hueco Mundo's M87 equivalent (if it even has one).

Such a thing simply can't be assumed. And given what the manga has shown and told us, it's only done at a planet level and that's the general level these characters are at.

Context: M87 is an ellipitical galaxy (the oldest and largest type) 54 million light years away. It contains an estimated trillion+ stars

What do you make of the realms having their own type of matter atoms and reishi?

Or about the moon and the sun?




If the novel didn't give any hints about the diameter of Seireitei (must have misunderstood), then there's still this in

It's something that should be taken accounted for since it's a clue for Seireitei's actual size (and because artist depiction of sizes can contradict with what's been said by different characters in the story).

For the wolves running to meet Komamura, they went 3 nights running to move trough different squads, and they mention several mountains and forests that are unaccounted for in aerial pictures of the Seireitei.



 

monkeybananas

Well-Known Member
Well that's just not how manga works, see Dangai Ichigo's pitiful feats.
In order to instantly vaporize a mass of silicon that large (I forget the exact dimensions but it was like upper tens meters each way) you actually need somewhere on the order of e17 Joules, it's a calc I did a long time ago. And that's silicon, which is a conservative estimate. e17 Joules is in the 100MT range, the destruction radius going to around 100km if it was a nuke. That's Ichigo's sword's shockwave. His actual sword strikes can be expected to deliver force with piercing modifier on several orders of magnitude higher than that.

If you don't peg all the captains at country level this is an insanely impressive feat; you actually don't have to know physics to know it's unprecedented and actually the most impressive feat in bleach by far up to that point in the manga.
What do you make of the realms having their own type of matter atoms and reishi?

Or about the moon and the sun?
Let's put it this way.

It's more ridiculous that Yhwach is merging trillions of galaxies with trillions of stars each (and that's just the observable universe) than it is to come up with an explanation for why only the earth equivalent in each realm is affected by this world merge. By far.

You might think it's just a simple matter of ignoring scale but it's really not, bleach characters are never portrayed as anything more than being able to affect their world and at most one world from another world. The only instances of anything universal requires a lot of equivocation (for example on the word "dimension") and very very liberal and frankly idiotic interpretations of these equivocated statements.
 

lol 4th dimension reiatsu

Well-Known Member
In order to instantly vaporize a mass of silicon that large (I forget the exact dimensions but it was like upper tens meters each way) you actually need somewhere on the order of e17 Joules, it's a calc I did a long time ago. And that's silicon, which is a conservative estimate. e17 Joules is in the 100MT range, the destruction radius going to around 100km if it was a nuke. That's Ichigo's sword's shockwave. His actual sword strikes can be expected to deliver force with piercing modifier on several orders of magnitude higher than that.

If you don't peg all the captains at country level this is an insanely impressive feat; you actually don't have to know physics to know it's unprecedented and actually the most impressive feat in bleach by far up to that point in the manga.

Sure but is still less than Zaraki's feat, who is orders of magnitude weaker.


Let's put it this way.

It's more ridiculous that Yhwach is merging trillions of galaxies with trillions of stars each (and that's just the observable universe) than it is to come up with an explanation for why only the earth equivalent in each realm is affected by this world merge. By far.

You might think it's just a simple matter of ignoring scale but it's really not, bleach characters are never portrayed as anything more than being able to affect their world and at most one world from another world. The only instances of anything universal requires a lot of equivocation (for example on the word "dimension") and very very liberal and frankly idiotic interpretations of these equivocated statements.

Is not about what you find ridiculous tho, is about the implications of the canon info we do have. Anyone can just make up a theory that ignores the fact the planets aren't floating in the middle of literal nowhere but the manga simply says atoms here, reishi there, every world will collapse and there's no place where we can escape.

The never being portrayed as that strong, is because there's only 3 characters that are supposed to be that strong, and they only fought in the last 2 chapters.
 

monkeybananas

Well-Known Member
Sure but is still less than Zaraki's feat, who is orders of magnitude weaker.
No it's not actually :lmao

Vaporization vs Large Debris Fragmentation
Direct hit vs aftershock from hundreds of m away

This isn't even a reiatsu slash, it's the accidental shockwave from a parry man, Ichigo didn't even mean to send an attack out that direction, he was parrying Aizen's hit.

And he still output tsar bomba + levels of energy.
Is not about what you find ridiculous tho, is about the implications of the canon info we do have. Anyone can just make up a theory that ignores the fact the planets aren't floating in the middle of literal nowhere but the manga simply says atoms here, reishi there, every world will collapse and there's no place where we can escape.

The never being portrayed as that strong, is because there's only 3 characters that are supposed to be that strong, and they only fought in the last 2 chapters.
Yeah no I'm not arguing from my own incredulity here. I'm directly disagreeing with your interpretation of portrayal. Their influence is portrayed as being limited to the worlds they are on.
 

Bad Wolf

Well-Known Member
You’re appealing to consequence
You're keeping to quote useless stuff and fallacy, while indulging in them and going off topic. Wanna rant even about that?

No, it doesn’t always guarantee a hit but it has a good record of being effective. Weaker people hurting stronger people, stronger people hurting weaker people. Hisagi vs tousen is relevant, even Tousen was aware that Hisagi was on the battlefield and was even fighting. Your point would be good if you had proven that it doesn’t help, but you only brought evidence that it doesn’t always help, yet one can argue that in this instance it’s valid, since Stark never tagged Kyoraku outside of that with a cero.

Gotcha, no evidence that Ichigo really took those cero right on the face, as no evidence that Stark got slower against Kyoraku.
Ulquiorra’s sword was blocking so much Ichigo that… In the next panel Ichigo is far from him. His statement doesn’t tell what you’re saying, again you’re pushing your own narrative but at this point it doesn’t surprise me. Blocking/dodging or else earlier would have required the mask to be effective like that, while in that occasion he was able to manage without it.
Same stuff from grimmjow, dodging/blocking it in some way, you’re missing the fact that a wound doesn’t really imply that he took all the hit, in fact it support the opposite, since Ichigo’s forehead isn’t really weaker than the rest of his body.
For Yamamoto you don’t really have an argument that denied what I’ve already said, so ok?
What evidence do you have? He wasn’t that damage at all for regular cero, he could damage with swords attack (that even for you are way more effective) but even there you admitted that they were flash wound, not even reaching his spine, you’ve argued for that and pointed out how Kyoraku wasn’t slowed since the wound wasn’t that deep. But now they’re serious wound? And you’re trying to argue about the wolves, that are more powerful, but yet failed to kill even the vizard with multiple hit and you don’t have any proof that they’re stronger than the sword. Fact at hand, stark never showed to be able to greatly damage Kyoraku, deal with it.

Again, Kyoraku was slashed and even Stark was slashed in the last hit. Stark was killed by a slash.
Unohana argument is so bad that’s not even funny. She was able to cut and “killing” him so many times before he could even react, she basically did all she wanted with him. And considering that Stark even got killed by a slash attack, you’re really trying with a desperate argument. Even telling “he wasn’t cutted in two” dude, he was slashed side by side, he wasn’t cutted in two probably just because Kyoraku didn’t used all the length of the blade, clearly he managed to cut him clean. I’m not gonna read again your falling tentative to disprove every single fact because you can’t accept that Stark got beaten badly. Next time, wank a stronger character.

Again, the quote of the databook is generic, of course the picture show the vizards since he used the wolves only against them. That doesn’t change the text, and if you wanna ignore it, then you don’t even have anything else else than stark statement.
Again, fact are clear, the Vizards weren’t KO, they were conscious and ready to fight. They could have died with the next wolf or after the next 10 for all we knew, good luck arguing about the hypothetical scenario.

The point is exactly that he cut the Haori. He attacked it because he couldn’t follow Kyoraku, but being able to react to an undress haori is not the same as reacting to the guy who was using it before. Stark got blitzed there. You can’t even follow this simple fact.

Nah, Robert managed to Blitz Kyoraku straight up in front of him and even damaging him. It’s impressive because it show greater power and speed than Stark, which always failed to blitz Kyoraku (unless he was distracted and attacking someone else) or leaving a permanent injury.

Again, falling to show damage isn’t an indication of damage. Using example of different situation or real life example of injury doesn’t mean that’s the same case for Stark, you don’t have any evidence that Stark got damage. It’s that simple.

Nah, Barro wasn’t damage because he used his powers in those 3 situation, that’s the point of what I said, glad that you didn’t understand it.
When Kyoraku cut the rifle he even tried to cut lille and thought that he managed to cut his arm off, it was the same attack/action but lille managed to use his power (by opening the eye) and react to it, as shown later when he explained his power, it was even shown the panel where Kyoraku attacked. Basically, Kyoraku wasn’t able to cut Lille not because he missed, but because of the power.
Kyoraku’s game are the exact opposite of irrelevant. The whole fight against base lille was about his games that were able to give him the edge and chance of hitting the enemy 3 times thanks to his powers. He wasn’t just using the shunpo and hitting.
Of course, all of this is very clear unless you’re trying to wank stark and closing your eyes to everything that happened.
It’s not just the game that countered Lille, it’s about having the ability to move without your opponent is able to see you move because there’s a clone of yourself. Or seeing other stuff or clones about yourself that can attack you from different direction or being careful enough to not get your shadow get hit. Basically, Kyoraku could have distracted Stark by himself, and attacked him with kageoni as he did in the fight thanks to those powers. It’s a possible scenario, close to what we’ve seen.

Anyway, your argument isn't progressing at all. You keep bringing up real life example that don't have any correlation and cringe fallacy, ignoring facts and trying desperate interpretation.
And the fact that you and your friend even admitted several times to be here to make fun or "poison the well" make me think that you're just trolling. Not that just wanking your favorite character is better, but in that case is useless to argue like that, you won't accept that he's weaker.
 

Colmillo

Well-Known Member
Took you almost a week to respond with more BS that doesn’t even address some of my points… I’ll get to you later.
 

Bad Wolf

Well-Known Member
Took you almost a week to respond with more BS that doesn’t even address some of my points… I’ll get to you later.
Say that you missed me, but you can keep your BS for yourself

The never being portrayed as that strong, is because there's only 3 characters that are supposed to be that strong, and they only fought in the last 2 chapters.
And when they fought, they showed even less AOE/destruction than previous combats with weaker people.
Yeah, the lack of AOE is a bad argument but these people don't usually follow battleboard stuff.
Probably they would argue even Saint Seiya or how many other verse, if they have that knowledge. There's no real reason to argue with them, else than checking some points. But given that they tend to ignore the feats and use their interpretation...
 

monkeybananas

Well-Known Member
Nah, Robert managed to Blitz Kyoraku straight up in front of him and even damaging him. It’s impressive because it show greater power and speed than Stark, which always failed to blitz Kyoraku (unless he was distracted and attacking someone else) or leaving a permanent injury.
How is your brain so negatively affected as to not understand that Robert blitzing Kyoraku has nothing to do with Stark in this argument but has everything to do with your elites automatically have better base stats argument.

You even acknowledges Robert has better base stats than Lille and still push Lille > regular sternritter in base stats.
And the fact that you and your friend even admitted several times to be here to make fun or "poison the well" make me think that you're just trolling. Not that just wanking your favorite character is better, but in that case is useless to argue like that, you won't accept that he's weaker.
I'm trolling daio, and...maybe you.

Who knows

:noworries

I'm just pointing out the logical fallacies i see at a glance to help my boy colmillo here get better at debating.

And when they fought, they showed even less AOE/destruction than previous combats with weaker people.
Yeah, the lack of AOE is a bad argument but these people don't usually follow battleboard stuff.
Probably they would argue even Saint Seiya or how many other verse, if they have that knowledge. There's no real reason to argue with them, else than checking some points. But given that they tend to ignore the feats and use their interpretation...
Considering you made very similar scale arguments against Daio just last month in this thread
A universe isn't exactly a x3 of the meteor.
Any evidence to point 3? Again, this is an exception that you're making up. It's like saying that Yamamoto doesn't scale for the stuff that he can destroy with his flames.
:distracted

Are you applying this post to yourself?
 

monkeybananas

Well-Known Member
Gotcha, no evidence that Ichigo really took those cero right on the face
God this is so pathetic

Chapter 279
Spoiler:





Chapter 340
Spoiler:




:giogio2

Anyone planning to debate this guy should take a brief look at this. He's been denying this for like 5 pages. Imagine if he asks you to prove something what kind of evidence he's gonna demand from you in order to accept your point.

And before you ask, you can just read his own arguments to see if he demands the same standard of evidence from himself.

:rotfl

I bet he thinks he's a good debater too
 

Colmillo

Well-Known Member
You're keeping to quote useless stuff and fallacy
The stuff that you call “useless” is counter evidence to your argument. Yet you choose to disregard that as evidence and continue to spout the same claim that I’ve already debunked, instead of actually taking the time to refute my counter evidence…The fallacy stuff, is me simply pointing out your wrongdoings.

:distracted
Tousen was aware that Hisagi was on the battlefield and was even fighting. Your point would be good if you had proven that it doesn’t help, but you only brought evidence that it doesn’t always help, yet one can argue that in this instance it’s valid, since Stark never tagged Kyoraku outside of that with a cero.
Wrong, both Sajin and Tousen were shocked at Hisagi’s appearance and what he did:


—————————-
my claim wasn’t that it didn’t help, this is my claim:
TL;DR being superior to someone doesn’t mean that you can just cause catastrophic damage to them with your weakest attack, a single attack at that. :lmao
^ I’m not here to prove that the attack being shot from behind didn’t help, I’m here to prove that Not fatally injuring your opponent with your weakest attack doesn’t mean that you are weaker. Yet you’re trying to push me to provide evidence for a claim I didn’t even make.

what’s even funnier is that you are also wrong on pushing burden of proof on me anyway. You’re assuming that I’m bringing that up to prove that it covers 100% of the scenarios, when in fact I’m not, I’m just pointing out flaws and showing to you that it’s inconsistent.

Your dichotomies are not like that, the spiritual power one for example is not like that (you’re ignoring very distinct third options like considering the nature of the attacks hitting differently).
————————
Are you blind? Shunsui was tagged by a cero:

You’re actively dodging the fact that Shunsui was trying to evade the ceros, implying that he would be damaged by them. He even needed assistance from jushiro to try and stop the cero form hitting him.

Also, we see shunsui’s eyes looking at stark, showing that he was aware that he was there once he pointed the gun to his back. There are no excuses.
Gotcha, no evidence that Ichigo really took those cero right on the face, as no evidence that Stark got slower against Kyoraku.
Ulquiorra’s sword was blocking so much Ichigo that… In the next panel Ichigo is far from him. His statement doesn’t tell what you’re saying, again you’re pushing your own narrative but at this point it doesn’t surprise me. Blocking/dodging or else earlier would have required the mask to be effective like that, while in that occasion he was able to manage without it.
Same stuff from grimmjow, dodging/blocking it in some way, you’re missing the fact that a wound doesn’t really imply that he took all the hit, in fact it support the opposite, since Ichigo’s forehead isn’t really weaker than the rest of his body.
For Yamamoto you don’t really have an argument that denied what I’ve already said, so ok?
Are you fucking serious right now? :lmao . Go to school and learn how to be accountable.

First of all, I’ve already posted proof of Ichigo Taking the cero. Even ulquiorra himself admitted it. We visibly see Ichigo standing directly in the middle of the line of fire that the cero was shot:
Chapter 340
Spoiler:


^ ulquiorra literally says that Ichigo withstood his cero, which means that he remained undamaged or unaffected by the cero, the only way that could be possible is if Ichigo actually took the attack itself.

Ichigo being farther away from ulquiorra than what was originally shown is irrelevant. Ceros have been shown to knock back people with it’s applied force, one shown example is when ulquiorra’s cero forced Ichigo way back to the outskirts of las noches, since Ichigo is now stronger, he won’t be easily pushed back by the cero-but he would still be pushed back even if it’s only a little bit, hence him being moved back.

Him managing without the mask Is because Ichigo withstood the damage in ulquiorra’s own words, and again, he can only withstand something if he’s making contact with it. Ichigo got strong enough to the point where even without mask, he can take his cero.

how could Ichigo have dodge/block Grimmjow cero when his 2 arms were preoccupied with Grimmjow’s cero. Like I said, we literally see him standing in the center of the attacks’ aftermath, meaning that he took it. If he dodged, then he wouldn’t have been placed right in the center, instead, he would be Out of the actual explosion or placed a little to the right or left.

The rest of Ichigo’s body being un damaged isn’t there problem either. There’s actually an example of this, aizen launched a fragor at Dangai ichigo that spanned across his entire body, yet the only part of him that’s damaged is his arm:
Spoiler:





—————————
As for your claim that strk didn’t get slower, actually refute this entire quote instead of dodging it, and retyping the same thing, and by that I mean you typing this; “stark didn’t get slower”, that’s not counter evidence to my refutation. That’s just you spouting something that’s already been proven false:
Yes, Shunsui did get stark at the end, but that stark was Suffering from his mental resolve being low, as you can see, he is losing resolve here:

then got stabbed in the back, a stab Shunsui could only get by getting help from the vizards, same scenario as when Shunsui appeared out of hitsugaya ice and attack aizen, he couldn’t get that hit unless aizen was dealing with someone else, and later proven that he couldn’t tag even a weakened stark with Kageoni in a 1 on 1:


and when he was fighting nonstop while Shunsui had multiple breaks and help from many opponents, while stark only had WW, and even then, he wasn’t really needed considering he could counter jushiro aswell by just shooting multiple cero in one spot. While Shunsui needed Jushiro to even have a chance against Metralleta.

There’s also the fact that he split his soul by using wolves, which has been stated in the databook to cut the life force:


“An attack that shares one's life, tears it apart, and follows it It tears up its own soul and makes it a warhead in the shape of a wolf, causing it to be hit by the opponent”
———————-
Compared to Shunsui who has been resting and waiting for the perfect chance to strike, while stark is being withered down by the vizards and the nonstop fights.

Stark was at an extreme disadvantage.



this is how the speed goes.

Bushogama >stark>Shunsui> a single cero from stark.
^
Bushogama Tagged a healthy stark, meanwhile Shunsui couldn’t tag a healthy stark.

Which means, bushogama>stark and Shunsui in speed

shunsui couldn’t tag a healthy stark , while a weakened stark tagged Shunsui.

Shunsui only managed to dodge a single cero from stark, while stark managed to dodged a cero that was AMPED up from jushiro shikai.

so not only did Stark outspeed shunsui while weakened and while healthy, he also has the better feat of dodging an amped cero.

again:

Bushogama> Stark>Amped cero from jushiro >?shunsui> single cero

Also, Shunsui was serious the whole time.

Having the intent to kill=being serious , he was trying to kill healthy stark the whole time and failed.

——————————-
What evidence do you have? He wasn’t that damage at all for regular cero, he could damage with swords attack (that even for you are way more effective) but even there you admitted that they were flash wound, not even reaching his spine, you’ve argued for that and pointed out how Kyoraku wasn’t slowed since the wound wasn’t that deep. But now they’re serious wound? And you’re trying to argue about the wolves, that are more powerful, but yet failed to kill even the vizard with multiple hit and you don’t have any proof that they’re stronger than the sword. Fact at hand, stark never showed to be able to greatly damage Kyoraku, deal with it.
Nice, repeating the same thing that I’ve already addressed, I’m going to quote what I’ve already said:
Wrong, as I’ve already proved, regular singular cero in general are not that useful against peers…And the slash was across shunsuis back, while Shunsui hit stark dead center with a STAB. A stab is more powerful than a slash considering you are actually using more force to thrust the blade…and A stab Has more penetrative power and precision when hitting the opponent. So saying that stark has less fire power based on a slash to the back, while Shunsui stabbed stark isn’t a good comparison at all.
^addresses the stab and the cero part.
Shunsui being slashed across the back doesn’t mean that he was weakened like stark was. Stark was actually stabbed in the spine(I covered this above already between the differences in attacks). But even if we went the notion that Shunsui got slower, he still wasn’t as weak as stark
^addresses the Shunsui getting slower part

The swords don’t have the feats to say that they are equal to the wolves. While The wolves have feats of Overpowering and decimating vizards with only 5 of them. The wolves are obviously superior.
^adresses the part about the wolves, and I would also like to add on to this quote. If 5 wolves were able to do that amount of damage, Not even another 5 would be needed to finish them off, even less than that. But you are saying that the wolves didn’t kill them is an anti feat when stark was interrupted before he could finish them with the wolves? They were already near death after 5 let alone all 50+. Swords don’t compare to that amount of power based off direct feats.
————————-
You see all of that above^? All of that addressed your previous posts, yet you have the audacity to try and bullshit me and repeat the same thing that I’ve already refuted…as for stark not being able to do great damage to shubsui? Well Um, let’s look at the facts. The vizards are way more durable based off feats, they got fatally injured by 5 wolves according to the databook, and stark still has 50+ left, that’s not even getting into the canon events that already happened.
—————————-
Fact of the matter is that you keep trying to say that stark used swords against Shunsui instead of wolves, which means it’s stronger….when Ive already disproven that claim false based on direct feats above^ but also based on what happened. Stark started out using ceros against both Shunsui and the vizards, when ceros weren’t working against the vizards he decided to use wolves(which splits his soul) and instead keeps to ceros against Shunsui. Him deciding to use wolves Rather than keep using ceros implies that the wolves are his strongest attack. You ask, why he didn’t use wolves against Shunsui, well if you havent noticed, when Shunsui sneaked stark in the back, he killed his other half(lillynette), as shown here:

Again, Kyoraku was slashed and even Stark was slashed in the last hit. Stark was killed by a slash.
Cool, like I’ve said before, that slash was to a vital spot with stark being weakened prior to that-meaning his hierro was weakened.
Unohana argument is so bad that’s not even funny.
You missed the point, the point of the whole entire post is to highlight that Hits in vital spots are more dangerous than hits in non vital spots, I.E stark slashing Shunsui across the back isn’t as fatal as Shunsui going for a stab wound to the spine.
. Even telling “he wasn’t cutted in two” dude, he was slashed side by side, he wasn’t cutted in two probably just because Kyoraku didn’t used all the length of the blade, clearly he managed to cut him clean. I’m not gonna read again your falling tentative to disprove every single fact because you can’t accept that Stark got beaten badly. Next time, wank a stronger character.
Being slashed side by side doesn’t mean that he was cut in two, if he was cut in two, one half of his body would be detached from the other half. Shunsui did use the full length of his blade, that’s literally how he was able to cut stark all the way across his chest, stark had a clear shot thanks to his distraction and got a full blade swing in because of that, while stark did not get a full blade swing when he hit Shunsui on the back, because he was preoccupied with the other sword.

Also, I’m not wanking stark, but what you’re doing is wanking the fuck out of Shunsui. You’re now telling me to “wank” a stronger character, when shunsui actually had to get help to prevent himself from going Bankai, and needed help form 2 vizards to even damage a healthy stark once.


^read up on his feats before you say that I should “wank” a stronger character.
used the wolves only against them.
Which proves that the databook was talking about them, and not referring to anyone else, next.
, they were conscious and ready to fight.
You can be fatally injured and still be conscious, look at sajin, got his stomach blown out yet he’s still conscious.
The point is exactly that he cut the Haori. He attacked it because he couldn’t follow Kyoraku, but being able to react to an undress haori is not the same as reacting to the guy who was using it before. Stark got blitzed there. You can’t even follow this simple fact.
He actually did follow Shunsui, he saw Shunsui before he striked. You can see his eyes looking at Shunsui before he went for the strike, so no, Shunsui didn’t “blitz” him.

It’s not possible for Shunsui to be able to blitz stark when he couldn’t even do it earlier even while trying to actively kill him… so you’re further proving my point that stark got weakened. I’ve already provided the quote above showing you that, and even provided another quote of comparing their speed, read up on that instead of copy pasting the same BS.
Nah, Robert managed to Blitz Kyoraku straight up in front of him and even damaging him. It’s impressive because it show greater power and speed than Stark, which always failed to blitz Kyoraku (unless he was distracted and attacking someone else) or leaving a permanent injury.
Concession accepted, you just admitted that Robert blitzed Shunsui, meaning Roberts speed stats are higher than base Lille(an elite sternritter).

Robert blitzing Kyoraku has nothing to do with Stark in this argument but has everything to do with your elites automatically have better base stats argument.
Again, falling to show damage isn’t an indication of damage.
Again, use your head. Internal damage can’t be shown, it’s literally internal. Stark expressing his pain by saying “ow” is a sign of damage, that is all the proof that’s needed.
When Kyoraku cut the rifle he even tried to cut lille and thought that he managed to cut his arm off,
he literally said it didn’t happen because he was being to merciful, meaning he let up on his swing before he could slice his arm off.



as shown later when he explained his power, it was even shown the panel where Kyoraku attacked.
Has nothing to do with what I said, I said that Lille was only able to react because Shunsui said something prior to him striking, which is proven right by the fact that Lille couldn’t react to Shunsui when he didn’t say anything(cutting his rifle without him even knowing).
———————————-
No, Shunsui straight up blitzed Lille, look here, Shunsui wasn’t using any games at all and yet he did this:


And he was even being merciful:


—————————-
You’re also wrong. Lille didn’t react at that moment and activated his power, Shunsui stabbed him, and then Lille opponened his eye, that’s not reacting:


————————
The only time barro dodged attacks was when Shunsui Talked or said something before he attacked, like this:


And this:




———————
^as you Can see, the only time Lille reacted is when Shunsui said something before striking, without him saying that, Lille couldn’t react(literally shown when he cut his rifle. The scene that Lille used to show that he opened his eyes, was when Shunsui talked before he striked.

Kyoraku’s game are the exact opposite of irrelevant.
Never said that they weren’t tf? This is the entire chain:
—————————————

I never said it didn’t help, all I said is that bringing up Shunsui not using Some games against stark that he used against Lille is irrelevant, as I’ve said before, Shunsui used more games against stark than Lille-that’s what I called irrelevant, you’re talking about something completely different, you’re talking about how the GAME WAS USED.

this is what you said:


——————————-
you are talking about the amount of games used in your previous post, which I responded to with above, and I have still kept that same claim as above in this very post. But you are changing your Premise and shifting the goal post. In your current post, You’re talking about the effectiveness of the game, but in your previous post(quote above) you’re talking about The amount of games used

hence, shifting the goal post.

But anyways, The games Shunsui used against Lille Countered his ability, I believed that I said this before:



^ would those games have been as effective against stark? Probably not considering they don’t directly counter him( as I’ve explained in my Stark vs Tybw shikai Shunsui post.):
Spoiler:




————————
Lille doesn’t have the numbers advantage nor the ability to surround himself in those numbers while stark does, Lille only has a single rifle that can only Shoot one at a time.

So yeah, but the main point is that you’re shifting the goalpost.


The whole fight against base lille was about his games that were able to give him the edge and chance of hitting the enemy 3 times thanks to his powers.
No, the whole point of the game was to Avoid being one shot by the X axis ability, because it pierces anytring.
about having the ability to move without your opponent is able to see you move because there’s a clone of yourself.
Lille had no problem with that considering Shunsui always talked before striking, or sung the lullaby.
Or seeing other stuff or clones about yourself that can attack you from different direction or being careful enough to not get your shadow get hit. Basically, Kyoraku could have distracted Stark by himself, and attacked him with kageoni as he did in the fight thanks to those powers. It’s a possible scenario, close to what we’ve seen.
Nope, not really. The clones that Shunsui summoned when he stabbed Lille in the back weren’t real, and I have already covered all the scenarios, if Shunsui used the game against stark:
Spoiler:

Shunsui needs his clones to potentially overwhelm stark with numbers like he did here with Lille Barro:

Spoiler:







But that won’t work either.Stark has shown the capability to Conjure 50-70 wolves or more.Meanwhile Shunsui at most has only been shown to produce 5-6 clones.Not only does Stark have the number advantage with the wolves,they are also intangible and cannot die from physical attacks like the Striking of a zanpakuto,so even if Shunsui used that game it would be nigh useless in the face of superior numbers and the Hax of the intangible wolves against his physical attacking clones.To further add on to this.



the clones wouldn’t even be able to get close if the real Shunsui couldn’t,thanks to Cero metralleta which even kept the real Shunsui on his toes,and getting ready to use bankai.So wolves or just starks Cero guns would already be an adequate counter to the clones.



Now moving on to the part where Shunsui appears behind his opponent almost instantly with Daruma San fell over.He Talks And sings the jingle before appearing behind his opponent,like he did with his first encounter with Lille,giving him the chance to dodge:

Spoiler:







Stark can also dodge aswell,and even easier at that given he has Better reactions than Lille,and has the advantage of listening in on the jingle before Shunsui strikes aswell

Anyway, your argument isn't progressing at all.
Ironic coming from the person that I’ve just exposed Copy and pasting the same thing. Like bruh, I literally compiled all the quotes that I used in my previous posts to address something that you have typed in your current post, meaning that you are repeating the same thing, hence your argument not progressing.
 

monkeybananas

Well-Known Member
I don't know why you're seriously engaging him on Ichigo having dodged/blocked grimmjow and ulquiorra's cero.

The guy also doubted Hado 96 hitting Aizen when Yama had a hold of Aizen's leg.

The reason why I quoted myself is because the most effective way to deal with this kind of tactic is to repeat yourself, and you might as well quote yourself. It's not really about advancing the argument, it's about humiliating them.
 

Colmillo

Well-Known Member
I don't know why you're seriously engaging him on Ichigo having dodged/blocked grimmjow and ulquiorra's cero.

The guy also doubted Hado 96 hitting Aizen when Yama had a hold of Aizen's leg.

The reason why I quoted myself is because the most effective way to deal with this kind of tactic is to repeat yourself, and you might as well quote yourself. It's not really about advancing the argument, it's about humiliating them.
Might aswell quote myself if he’s not using a different argument…Like, what do you do against someone who spams the same argument over and over even tho you’ve thrown Evidence into their face, yet they blindly ignore that and say the same thing again?
 

monkeybananas

Well-Known Member
Might aswell quote myself if he’s not using a different argument…Like, what do you do against someone who spams the same argument over and over even tho you’ve thrown Evidence into their face, yet they blindly ignore that and say the same thing again?
Point out the double standard in his standard of evidence for your claims vs his own claims.
 

monkeybananas

Well-Known Member
Funny thing is, that it took him weeks to reply back, yet all he did was just bring up the same thing…
I mean the evidence he is presented with, such as Haschwalth literally saying he stole reishi, scans of Grimmjow and Ulquiorra hitting Ichigo with point blank ceros, and Yama hitting Aizen with a point blank Hado 96...

LIke that's really really obvious right? But he is questioning it with some super lame shitty ad hoc, right?

Point out he's far more lax with the evidence he presents.
 

Bad Wolf

Well-Known Member
If the novel didn't give any hints about the diameter of Seireitei (must have misunderstood), then there's still this in

It's something that should be taken accounted for since it's a clue for Seireitei's actual size (and because artist depiction of sizes can contradict with what's been said by different characters in the story).
Yeah, that statement + the size stated in the movie support the claim of a very big Seiretei, much larger than the one we're currently using
 
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