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Base Sanji vs Doflamingo

Shunsuiju

The Orphan of the North
Proof is the fact that Oda felt the need to show Dofla using Black Haki against Rufy. While he didn't show any trace of that against Sanji.

And that was with a few chapters difference, it's not like Marineford Arc and Post Time Skip arcs.
So he didn't show Haki because it wasn't used. As when it was used, he showed.

Lol. ZORO. Zoro defended himself against Fujitora, even pushing him back and gaining the Admiral's praise, with the bystanders marines worrying for Fujitora.
Fujitora wasn't serious? Yes. Sure.
But let's be honest and recognize that Zoro wasn't serious as well. No bandana on. No Haki. No Santoryu. No high end moves. No Ashura. Just a single sword nameless slash.

It's a completely different portrayal.
Fujitora is >> Doflamingo.
Sanji clashing with Doflamingo results in Sanji losing immediately and risking his life without giving any damage.
Zoro clashing with Fujitora results in Zoro defending himself, even pushing the opponent back, and gaining praise and hype.

It's not that hard. If Oda let a casual Zoro have a good showing against a casual Fujitora, he would have a 100% Zoro give extreme diff to 100% Doflamingo.
Or do you think that Zoro's Ashura went from doing shit to Doflamingo to wound Hybrid Kaido to the point it left a scar? When Denjiro + Sulong Inu + Ashura Doji + Kinemon all joined together couldn't create enough strength to even re-open the old scar, let alone create a new one?
Did Zoro improve 900% just because of Enma? Or was he YC2-YC3 level before already?

So, use common sense and stop this.

Rufy is a bit stronger than Zoro and Zoro is widely stronger than Sanji. This results in a massive gap between Rufy and Sanji. It's something that it's obvious to 99% of people.
like this?

\

God this thread :lmao

I'm one of those Zoro closer to Luffy than to Sanji people, but this Sanji hate is out of hand. You have to ignore pretty much everything about Sanji's presence in the story to think that he's "widely" weaker than Luffy let alone Zoro.
 

Conxc

Well-Known Member
Yeah, with Gear 4. Bounceman trashed Doflamingo though and no one is arguing that Sanji is on a level with Gear 4.

Before that, Doflamingo never wrapped Luffy's body. He just tied his wrists because, you know, plot.

Well we're in agreement here..

The "prolong" part is what I'm arguing arguing. With knowledge, Law got bodied by Doflamingo, base Luffy got bodied by Doflamingo, and Sanji would get bodied by Doflamingo. The point is that people are knocking Sanji for losing quickly when this seems to be clearly due to his unfamiliarity with Doflamingo's power.


Well no, if Doflamingo immobilizes him as he did with Sanji then Luffy cannot blow air into his arms and transform. Doflamingo was just being a dumbo who was smiling at Luffy transforming because, you know, plot.


Regardless, Sanji isn't comparable to Gear 4. He's comparable to base Luffy only IMO.

Odd/stupid wording.
Putting up a shield is the opposite of allowing yourself to be hit, and why are you mentioning whether Doflamingo's was burned? Go show me some panels of Bounceman knocking feathers loose from the or quit being silly. It's obvious Doflamingo's is coated in haki when he uses it as a shield and clothing damage has never been a of attack strength.

Red was strong enough to damage Doflamingo. A Jet Bazooka for example, wasn't. Obviously Sanji has stronger attacks he can pull than those he showed such as his old finishers like Diable Mouton Shot and Hells Memories which was portrayed alongside Vagabond Drill.
Then what are we doing here if we agree?

Sanji still wouldn’t have lasted very long in a fight where he can’t deal any damage but also can’t defend both because his CoA pales in comparison to Doffy’s. Also, Luffy was not getting bodied. Doffy had to pull out CoA hardening to attack and defend from the start of the real fight against Luffy, who was holding his own in base/G2.
Spoiler:










The first hit that Sanji got in, he caught Doffy by surprise and it still did 0 damage. Throughout that fight, Doffy, like Vergo, did not see the need in using CoA Hardening against Sanji. If you wanna argue that he used regular CoA that's fine as he most likely did, but obviously CoA Hardening is step further both offensively and defensively. I'm using the feather coat to emphasize how little Sanji was able to do damage-wise.

I posted a bunch of panels of Luffy injuring Doffy in base/G2. For example, Jet Gattling and one of the attacks that Sanji used on Doffy are the same type of attack. Doffy had to defend against Jet Gattling with Hardening and clearly still felt it vs not having to against Sanji and laughing about it.
 

NotTommy

Well-Known Member
Not really sure about Base Sanji outright winning. He's been more impressive this arc than in earlier ones post-timeskip but I still think without Raid Suit it's a kinda a bad match-up.

Doffy's pretty versatile and with moves like Parasite, it's still gonna be hard for Sanji (though Sanji would now know Doffy utilzies strings). I think Sanji does much better now than before though considering he was only momentarily down the only time we saw him struggle at all at the Live Stage.

With Queen, who's also really impressive and who I view as comparable to Doffy (I kinda rank Queen higher), he's the type of opponent that Sanji does best against (strong and has good defenses but one that Sanji's significantly faster than). Against Doffy, Sanji doesn't have that same advantage and he might not get a chance to use something like Hell's Memories.

I think Raid Suit Sanji has a good chance of winning though. Invisibility, increased durability and increased speed makes it much closer in my opinion (I see Raid Suit Sanji taking it personally). If Base Sanji continues to be impressive and shows even more against Queen then maybe I'd give it to him too (even if he loses, it'd be more of a fight this time around for sure).
 

Conxc

Well-Known Member
@Oberyn Nymeros Also, I realized that you have a habit of cutting out parts of scans that refute your statements. These scans show Luffy being able to transform into G4 without having to blow up his limbs.

Spoiler:





I would've given you the benefit of a doubt and took it as maybe you're like me and simply forgot, but you posted one of these scans to try and make your argument...just the part that you wanted though.
 

Oberyn Nymeros

Well-Known Member
Then what are we doing here if we agree?
Hey, you replied to me, remember?
Sanji still wouldn’t have lasted very long in a fight where he can’t deal any damage but also can’t defend both because his CoA pales in comparison to Doffy’s.
Conxc, I thought we agreed on that point already. Remember, you said that knowledge would prolong the inevitable?

How about this, I think we can at least agree that Sanji has stronger hits than those he used against Doflamingo, right?
Also, Luffy was not getting bodied. Doffy had to pull out CoA hardening to attack and defend from the start of the real fight against Luffy, who was holding his own in base/G2.
No, there's a big difference between how Luffy performed against Doflamingo before and after Gamma Knife which is why I mentioned it specifically.

Before Gamma Knife, Luffy was put on his back in seconds without doing any damage or even being able to mount a successful defense both times he faced Doflamingo. Even post Gamma Knife, those two punches are the last damaging hits that Luffy manages without Gear 4. I already brought up all of this.
I'm using the feather coat to emphasize how little Sanji was able to do damage-wise.
But....you know thats dumb.
I posted a bunch of panels of Luffy injuring Doffy in base/G2. For example, Jet Gattling and one of the attacks that Sanji used on Doffy are the same type of attack. Doffy had to defend against Jet Gattling with Hardening and clearly still felt it vs not having to against Sanji and laughing about it.
What do you mean by he "clearly felt" the gatling from Luffy? We don't even get a reaction shot from him, but with Sanji we see Doflamingo complimenting the attack. To use your own stupid ass logic, Luffy didn't even manage to knock a single feather loose from his cape with that barrage.

@Oberyn Nymeros Also, I realized that you have a habit of cutting out parts of scans that refute your statements. These scans show Luffy being able to transform into G4 without having to blow up his limbs.
No they don't. We know from the Katakuri fight that he has to blow into his muscles to begin the transformation. Its why Kats could strop the transformation by stopping Luffy's movements. Here, it happened off panel but that's no reason to assume the limitation applied before and after this specific moment.
 

Conxc

Well-Known Member
Hey, you replied to me, remember?

Conxc, I thought we agreed on that point already. Remember, you said that knowledge would prolong the inevitable?

How about this, I think we can at least agree that Sanji has stronger hits than those he used against Doflamingo, right?

No, there's a big difference between how Luffy performed against Doflamingo before and after Gamma Knife which is why I mentioned it specifically.

Before Gamma Knife, Luffy was put on his back in seconds without doing any damage or even being able to mount a successful defense both times he faced Doflamingo. Even post Gamma Knife, those two punches are the last damaging hits that Luffy manages without Gear 4. I already brought up all of this.

But....you know thats dumb.

What do you mean by he "clearly felt" the gatling from Luffy? We don't even get a reaction shot from him, but with Sanji we see Doflamingo complimenting the attack. To use your own stupid ass logic, Luffy didn't even manage to knock a single feather loose from his cape with that barrage.


No they don't. We know from the Katakuri fight that he has to blow into his muscles to begin the transformation. Its why Kats could strop the transformation by stopping Luffy's movements. Here, it happened off panel but that's no reason to assume the limitation applied before and after this specific moment.
Yeah, he's got some, but the Haki diff would mitigate the difference is what I'm saying. I'm not so sure Hell's Memories would have done much to Doffy here either. Named attacks from Luffy did less than some basic punches and kicks that seemingly did a little more to him in their fight. To me it's clear that the fight came down to CoA.

Doffy repaired his organs. Not gonna say he was back to 100% but he obviously mitigated the lethal aspect of the attack and didn't see all that phased by it. Not to mention Luffy wasn't 100% himself.

It might be a bit of banter, but the point is that he didn't hurt him at all.

For one, he had to defend with CoA Hardening which tells us that he already respected Luffy as an opponent more than Sanji. Also, if the coat thing was serious, he caused damage to Doffy's body. Notable, physical damage to Doffy in base. Sanji did nothing lol. Not the best counter there, bud.

That's obviously inconsistent because there's no way for Luffy to blow into his muscles in the scans I showed without breaking free of Pasrasite. He transformed without it, and present day does not have to do so to go G4. Just like he eventually didn't have to do the G2 stance or blow into his thumb for G3 anymore at some point. Either way, I provided proof that he doesn't have to do it. If you're saying otherwise then you gotta prove that.
 

Oberyn Nymeros

Well-Known Member
I mean, you've already said that "Red Hawk knocked the dog piss out of Doffy" but now you're unsure if Hell Memories would do damage? Come on now.
Spoiler:






Doflamingo wouldn't look so worried and bother with dodging and blocking and commenting on Sanji's power if Sanji's hits were actually incapable of damaging him.

----------

We're getting away from my point though which is that Sanji was defeated as quickly as he was because he lacked knowledge. With knowledge he lasts longer just as Law and base Luffy could though he would still lose in the end without pushing Doflamingo very far.

All this talk of Sanji not burning Doflamingo's cape and Doflamingo smiling is just pure silliness.

Current Sanji wrecks him though.
 
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Conxc

Well-Known Member
I mean, you've already said that "Red Hawk knocked the dog piss out of Doffy" but now you're unsure if Hell Memories would do damage? Come on now.
Spoiler:






Doflamingo wouldn't look so worried and bother with dodging and blocking and commenting on Sanji's power if Sanji's hits were actually incapable of damaging him.

----------

We're getting away from my point though which is that Sanji was defeated as quickly as he was because he lacked knowledge. With knowledge he lasts longer just as Law and base Luffy could though he would still lose in the end without pushing Doflamingo very far.

All this talk of Sanji not burning Doflamingo's cape and Doflamingo smiling is just pure silliness.
Yes, because of the Haki diff. You can't ignore that. Wadatsumi is the only opponent we've seen Hell's Memories against. That's an opponent where Haki doesn't matter. Like I said, Doffy knew that he didn't have to guard or attack Sanji with CoA Hardening. He clealry felt like he didn't need to as Luffy warranted him using it. Doffy wasn't smiling when Luffy started wailing on him in base, and definitely not when G4 was on his ass, but he was smiling the entire time he fought Sanji and that matters.

I have no problem saying with knowledge, Sanji would last aa little longer, but you're trying to put his performance on the same level as base Luffy and Law's when both of them performed better, Luffy performing far better than Sanji did. That's what I can't agree with because that's just not true.
 

Oberyn Nymeros

Well-Known Member
Yes, because of the Haki diff. You can't ignore that. Wadatsumi is the only opponent we've seen Hell's Memories against. That's an opponent where Haki doesn't matter.
So you think Red Hawk is more powerful than Hells Memories? Where do you think Vagabond Drill stacks with Red Hawk? Just curious.
He was smiling the entire time he fought Sanji and that matters.



That's what I can't agree with because that's just not true.
Okay.
 

Conxc

Well-Known Member
So you think Red Hawk is more powerful than Hells Memories? Where do you think Vagabond Drill stacks with Red Hawk? Just curious.





Okay.
Again, at a certain level, Haki matters more than the actual attack itself. Firstly, I want to say that I completely disagree with the logic that if X attack is used next to Y attack, then X and Y attacks are the same. Jinbe is a proven CoA user. A Vagabond Drill vs Doffy will do more than HM because Jinbe's Haki is better. So yeah, a Red Hawk from DR Luffy against an opponent like Doffy is stronger than HM would be from DR Sanji.

That's cute.

Look for the relevant scans.
 

Empathy

Disciple of Thunder
If RS Sanji is really a budding YC2, then it stands to reason that base Sanji at this point would be a borderline YC3, probably on par with Jinbe, which is where most people had Sanji close to before the raid-suit improvements. It depends on the kind of boost Sanji really gets from his RS, as it seems to strengthen his base self just from wearing, even after he takes it off; it’s not for clear how long he’ll keep getting a passive stat boost each time he puts it on. Nevertheless, Doflamingo is an established YC3 to me, and he’d take it based on feats so far, so I’d have to say that Doffy wins with high or extreme difficulty for now.
 
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Oberyn Nymeros

Well-Known Member
Again, at a certain level, Haki matters more than the actual attack itself.
You made that up.
Firstly, I want to say that I completely disagree with the logic that if X attack is used next to Y attack, then X and Y attacks are the same. Jinbe is a proven CoA user.
Vagabond drill is a water element shockwave amped hit not a hardened haki strike. How do you think Vagabond Drill stacks with Red Hawk? Again, just curious.
 

Conxc

Well-Known Member
You made that up.

Vagabond drill is a water element shockwave amped hit not a hardened haki strike. How do you think Vagabond Drill stacks with Red Hawk? Again, just curious.
Brother, the fights that we are talking about alone are proof of this, aside from the many others that are determined by Haki....

Sanji's named attacks did nothing to Doffy. That's canon. Basic punches, CoA Hardened, from Luffy did more than those named Sanji attacks. Also canon, in fact, I showed you that. I wonder why.

Depends on the opponent. At this stage in their current selves I'm taking a Red Hawk with ACoA + ACoC over a Vagabond Drill. Also, VG should still be compatible with CoA.
 

Baroxio

Unlimited Strategy Works
You made that up.

Vagabond drill is a water element shockwave amped hit not a hardened haki strike. How do you think Vagabond Drill stacks with Red Hawk? Again, just curious.
Vagabond Drill pushed Big Mom back, which is far and away superior to anything that either Red Hawk or Hell Memories has ever done.

I rate Red Hawk as a Gear 2.5 attack. Below all Gear 3 level attacks, which themselves are all below Gear 4 level attacks.

As for Wadatsumi, if you actually look at what happened with him, Jinbei's feats are superior to Sanjis. Wadatsumi attacks, and Jinbei overpowers his attack and knocks him on his ass. Sanji then kicks him while he's down, forcing him to sit up. In other words, Sanji's feat only has to counter the gravity of Wadatsumi's body. Jinbei had to overcome both Wadatsumi's gravity AND the force of his own blows. Ergo, Jinbei's feat is superior.

Afterwards, Wadatsumi blows himself up to a tremendous size and threatens to roll over the entire plaza. Narratively, Wadatsumi doing this is meant to be a point of threat and contention. Ergo, this could be considered a power up for him, especially if you consider it similar to Luffy's Gears (which also rely on puffing oneself up with air). At any rate, Jinbei uses Vagabod Drill, punctures the Puffed Wadatsumi and forces him to release all of his stored air. Once he's returned to normal, Sanji then finishes Wadatsumi off with Hell Memories. Jinbei dealt with the main threat of puffed Wadatsumi, while Sanji played cleanup duty. Again, his feat here is superior.

Furthermore, Jinbei's attack is penetrative, while Sanji's is seemingly a mix of blunt and burning damage. Most people rate penetrative and cutting attacks higher than blunt force trauma or burns - especially in a shounen manga. Long story short, there's a reason why Jinbei is officially joining in the same arc/day that Sanji (and to a lesser extent, Luffy & Zoro) gets a massive powerup.
 

Conxc

Well-Known Member
No they're not

Nah, Fishman Island or WCI. Red Hawk vs Vagabond Drill.
Welp, can't argue with that logic. :yougotme

The attack that knocked the snot out of Doffy.

Seriously though, the opponent matters. I feel like VG was used specifically because of Wadatsumi's size. You seem to think that's Jinbe's best move?
 

Oberyn Nymeros

Well-Known Member
As for Wadatsumi, if you actually look at what happened with him, Jinbei's feats are superior to Sanjis. Wadatsumi attacks, and Jinbei overpowers his attack and knocks him on his ass. Sanji then kicks him while he's down, forcing him to sit up. In other words, Sanji's feat only has to counter the gravity of Wadatsumi's body. Jinbei had to overcome both Wadatsumi's gravity AND the force of his own blows. Ergo, Jinbei's feat is superior.
Comparing a 7 thousand tile hit to an unnamed non DJ hit.
Afterwards, Wadatsumi blows himself up to a tremendous size and threatens to roll over the entire plaza. Narratively, Wadatsumi doing this is meant to be a point of threat and contention. Ergo, this could be considered a power up for him, especially if you consider it similar to Luffy's Gears (which also rely on puffing oneself up with air). At any rate, Jinbei uses Vagabod Drill, punctures the Puffed Wadatsumi and forces him to release all of his stored air. Once he's returned to normal, Sanji then finishes Wadatsumi off with Hell Memories. Jinbei dealt with the main threat of puffed Wadatsumi, while Sanji played cleanup duty. Again, his feat here is superior.
Wadatsumi hadn't returned to normal when Sanji kicked him. We know how Wadatsumi is shaped.
Furthermore, Jinbei's attack is penetrative, while Sanji's is seemingly a mix of blunt and burning damage. Most people rate penetrative and cutting attacks higher than blunt force trauma or burns - especially in a shounen manga. Long story short, there's a reason why Jinbei is officially joining in the same arc/day that Sanji (and to a lesser extent, Luffy & Zoro) gets a massive powerup.
You did all this to let me know you think Jinbe was stronger than Sanji during earlier arcs? I don't disagree.

Welp, can't argue with that logic.
I know. You just didn't present any argument for why haki is more important than attack power.
The attack that knocked the snot out of Doffy.
So Red Hawk > Vagabond. Interesting; I appreciate the response.
 
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Shunsuiju

The Orphan of the North
If RS Sanji is really a budding YC2, then it stands to reason that base Sanji at this point would be a borderline YC3, probably on par with Jinbe, which is where most people had Sanji close to before the raid-suit improvements. It depends on the kind of boost Sanji really gets from his RS, as it seems to strengthen his base self just from wearing, even after he takes it off; it’s not for clear how long he’ll keep getting a passive stat boost each time he puts it on. Nevertheless, Doflamingo is an established YC3 to me, and he’d take it based on feats so far, so I’d have to say that Doffy wins with high or extreme difficulty for now.
If your conclusion is that Sanji is merely Jimbei's equal in base, or without the raid suit, then your equation must be really off.

The answer is probably that Jack and Jinbe are substantially weaker than Sanji and Queen.
 

Sablés

Well-Known Member
I think Doflamingo could've fit in between YC2 or 3. His Dressrosa performance indicates the lower spectrum of 3.

He's tough as nails and pretty durable for a guy who fights by outmanoeuvring his enemies. He also doesn't back down completely from Admirals, was able to bind Jozu for some time, and required the best attacks from Law and then Luffy in G4 to finally put him down. Yeah, the Commanders are more durable and physically stronger, but he's got enough haxx and AoE to hold his own against them in a fight I think.

If it wasn't for the plot contrived bullshit in Dressrosa, a technique like Bird Cage or God Thread could've been really devastating. I can see Doflamingo still being a pretty strong player the next time we see him. He won't be as good as someone like Katakuri, but Oda won't have him be weaker than someone like Cracker if he's ever to be relevant again.

Speculation aside, I honestly haven't been that impressed by Queen; who has shown nothing besides his durability and the fact that he fought alongside his colleague that would make me feel like he'd be much of a threat to someone like Marco, who was embarrassing him for multiple stretches. Conventional wisdom and powerscaling should logically mean Queen >> Doflamingo, and yet aside from physical resillience/durability, I don't see much in combat ability that separates him. Queen was getting choked and thrown around by Marco, while Big Mom basically 2-shotted him without Haki and Homies. Of course, Doflamingo would've gotten beaten down in both scenarios fairly quickly too, but that's kind of the point.

OT: Sanji beats Doflamingo with the Raid Suit where he will vastly outclass him in speed; but I think it's a lot closer in base. His physical attributes and Haki should definitely be on a far higher level than they were in Dressrosa, meaning he'll be able to break out of Parasite easily and clash with Doflamingo in CQC without any much of a problem. I can even see Sanji now having the strength to kick away some of Doffy's higher end attacks while in Diable Jambe. His speed should be greater now...RS Sanji is potentially a YC1 level combination, while Base Sanji still beats Doflamingo high-difficulty.
My thoughts exactly.

Though personally, I've found the idea of YC2/3 to be a silly invention by people who want to needlessly group tiers. Yonko commanders have no rank in-between crews so the term is fundamentally misguided. I'm pretty sure Jozu or Vista would be comparable if not superior to Katakuri based on their feats in MF. Hell, Vista and Marco both had a scene where they damaged Akainu comparably well. That same Marco who hurt Queen by his own admission. For me, there are the first mates and then there are the Yonko commanders. Crews are not equals so there's no reason their top placements have to be either.

It also bothers me how matchups/abilities are often ignored and decide everything on reputation and thoughtless scaling. :oldshrug
 

Datassassin

Floating
Every sensible reader is aware of the fact that those aren't absolute rankings, just like for (to a lesser extent) the Yonkos, admirals, Vice admirals, Supernovas,etc.
You can't totally ignore those "titles" which generally don't contradict the plotline.
Admirals and Yonko have a discernible strength standard. None of those other things, including "being third or second best in x crew" have a specific strength standard, yet in discussions of character-strengths that's exactly how they've historically been used both across the OP sections and in this thread.
Which proves that the only sensible approach is to take every information into account while aknowledging that there is no absolute certainty....
I've asserted that bounty represents a perceived "threat level" by the in-story world government and that for in-story characters, strength-assessment is an easy way to attempt rationalization of that "threat level". I have not said "bounties are without value in hyping a character", nor "bounties should be excluded from any metrics of character evaluation". I am saying that if you center an argument on "X has a higher bounty than Y, so X is stronger than Y", then you're engaging in folly point-blank. This is hardly me projecting lofty analysis onto the story of One Piece because the author went out of their way, repeatedly for years pre-and-post-skip, to indicate how bounty =/= strength.
it's a way for the author to relay an information to the reader; it's aimed at us readers, as well as designed for in universe world building.
A bounty in itself only tells the reader (or even an in-story character) how much the government is publicly concerned by that character. You don't get a narrow handle on strength, nor do you get history. Not actually that much information other than a fun Wumbo number, in itself.
It's interesting but you're speculating.
Headcanon.
You can't question the validity of the rankings and the bounties and then try to come to this conclsuion based on so little.....
I made no attempt to obscure the fact that my example with Cracker was indeed speculation. Very mild speculation because the argument concerning the misleading epithet + inaccurate poster was simple, and compounds with Cracker's showings relative to Smoothie's. It's a relevant example of a feasible post-skip failing of bounties to indicate omniscient assessment of a character's strength level.
It would never end, i could very well claim that the WG ignore the fact that Jack is mixed race hence why they assumed he died when he fell into the sea after confronting the Navy trying to free Doffy....
It was written in all the Newspaper that he died, which meant that they ignored that he could breath underwater.
So his threat level is actually underestimated....
It would never end, correct. Many characters can have fine arguments made for shifting of their Fun Government Numbers. It's almost as if the edge of the World Government's perception is prone to being flawed on numerous levels, including comprehension of characters' abilities or the weight of those abilities on their threat to the government.

:ramsaythunk
Obviously, anyone can and surely will continue using bounties as power-levels, but it's a silly action to me and makes for increasingly shitty arguments in "vs" discourse.

Another proof of how shaky it is to rely on feats, anime ,etc.

I've seen the same OP fans in some instance use anime's portrayal to validate Zoro's use of CoC, while contesting the same source material when it came to Sanji's use of hardening.
Similarly Sanji clearly dominated X Drake in the anime.....
So which one is it? Anime is canon or baseless?
The canonical manga is the story directly as the author personally visualizes it. I haven't advocated for the use of sources like the anime to compare character strengths.
The X Drake exchange weren't a bad look for Sanji, he escaped X DRAKE two times, with one of those encounter including Hawkins too. He was protecting O Toko, Nami, Robin, Shinobu, and safely escaped both times without any injury.
The second time they clashed, Drake used his full Zoan form while Sanji did not use his Raid Suit.....
Based on them feats, this was not a bad look
1) Sanji can turn fuckin invisible and fly, so he should be able to at least run away efficiently given how much faster he is than Drake. He already had his Ranger Suit on when he meets up with Robin in 936 and we see Drake looking for him.
2) The main exchanges I was referring to were the direct combat clashes shown from 944, where Sanji's kick does so little to Drake that the marine could have been drawn in the exact same way in a scene where he wasn't being struck; it may as well have not happened, and Drake didn't bother visibly defending at all. Next, 945 sees Sanji attempt to use a Diable Jambe technique on Drake, and he's literally swatted away with Drake's tail. That specifically had a heavy degree of 'oof' when Sanji is known for his COO and speed.
Sanji was able to free Momo despite King and Queen's presence,
This was more a reminder of the inconsistent application of COO than it was some shining combat moment for Sanji relative to King/Queen. Recall how King treated Sanji in that scene, and the warranted mockery Sanji had afterwards.
Plot>Feats, and too many readers act like it's not the case.
This is 100% wrong for discussions of strength in hypothetical matchups where the protective veil of plot is erased, per the nature of Battledome sections. Characters here use all their abilities as well as they can in-line with their personalities or mindsets, with the imagined fights unencumbered by convenient lucky power-ups or merciful strokes of probability.
Depends on which showings you're talking about.
I'm talking about actually-good material for threads like this one, aka showings of Sanji's against current opponents that demonstrate increased strength in relevant ways. As of now? Sanji lacks reasonable counters for Parasite, such as ones in line with the performances of Parasite we've seen between Jozu, DR Sanji, & DR Luffy. Sanji lacks devastating techniques like Gamma Knife or King Kong Gun. Sanji lacks general physical force comparable to DR G4. Sanji also lacks speed on the level of DR G4. When that character gets more things articulated in the canon story, then I can rationalize a non-plot-protected Sanji prevailing over a DD unimpeded by that same plot. Until then, such a restricted Sanji without the fruits of his upcoming advancement doesn't get a victory nod from me here, when I didn't see unrestricted Sanji as prevailing in the first place.
 

Mihawk

Warrior of Asgard
My thoughts exactly.

Though personally, I've found the idea of YC2/3 to be a silly invention by people who want to needlessly group tiers. Yonko commanders have no rank in-between crews so the term is fundamentally misguided. I'm pretty sure Jozu or Vista would be comparable if not superior to Katakuri based on their feats in MF. Hell, Vista and Marco both had a scene where they damaged Akainu comparably well. That same Marco who hurt Queen by his own admission. For me, there are the first mates and then there are the Yonko commanders. Crews are not equals so there's no reason their top placements have to be either.

It also bothers me how matchups/abilities are often ignored and decide everything on reputation and thoughtless scaling. :oldshrug
I agree man.

It’s actually reassuring and increases confidence for me to see that a poster like you (and I mean that in a good way) feels that way about these tiers and commanders. No mandatory requirement for all yonk crews to be equal or built the same. In fact they’re all fundamentally different. I’ve always felt Jozu was better than Katakuri, and doflamingo has such incredible influence so he’s very powerful.

But I think ppl probs gonna bring up Cracker and the difference in performance against G4 etc etc. Personally though I always got sick and tired of using Luffy as the basis of comparison for everything. It’s the same folly that led ppl to think the first mates get one-shotted by Kaido etc.
 

Mylesime

Well-Known Member
Admirals and Yonko have a discernible strength standard. None of those other things, including "being third or second best in x crew" have a specific strength standard, yet in discussions of character-strengths that's exactly how they've historically been used both across the OP sections and in this thread.
I disagree, for the most part every OP reader would agree that Joz is stronger than Smoothie without even knowing his bounty, and despite similar roles in their respective crews.
The commander title just gives us a range, like with the Supernovas.
The stalemate between those empires also lets us know that it is highly unlikely that a commander could low diff his counter part in an opposite Yonko crew.
These guys are relevant and can't be ignored by their counter parts, something portrayed at Marineford where very clearly Doffy was portrayed as a legitimate factor against Joz for example. We are currently seeing different match ups, that lasted for quite sometimes involving the Dukes, Jack, or Perospero.
People just tend to overblow the gaps between these characters.....
There are huge implications if one assume that one of this commander can low diff his counter part, like showcased on Onigashima, such disparity would be a huge game changer in a conflict.
It would be silly to talk about strict equality, however it does indicate a relative proximity (basically low diff is out of the equation)


I've asserted that bounty represents a perceived "threat level" by the in-story world government and that for in-story characters, strength-assessment is an easy way to attempt rationalization of that "threat level". I have not said "bounties are without value in hyping a character", nor "bounties should be excluded from any metrics of character evaluation". I am saying that if you center an argument on "X has a higher bounty than Y, so X is stronger than Y", then you're engaging in folly point-blank. This is hardly me projecting lofty analysis onto the story of One Piece because the author went out of their way, repeatedly for years pre-and-post-skip, to indicate how bounty =/= strength.

Strawman once again.
Who does that? Certainly not the majority, when we are all aware of the fact that Ussop has a higher bounty than Franky currently.
No one claims that Sanji is stronger than Zoro because his bounty is higher. Heck Robin just beat Black Maria....
As long as we agree that bounties are just another element that comes into play when evaluating a character "threat level", which is Linked to a certain extent to their strength ( Caesar and Queen for example have a lot in common, the disparity with their bounties can mostly be explained by the fact that the calimity is far more difficult to subdue), it can give us a range (proximity once again).
That's how we can conclude that Queen is far stronger than Caesar simply by looking at their bounties (similar background, confidential intel, and activities, as well as networks)

A bounty in itself only tells the reader (or even an in-story character) how much the government is publicly concerned by that character. You don't get a narrow handle on strength, nor do you get history. Not actually that much information other than a fun Wumbo number, in itself.
While i obviously agree that a bounty is just an element among others to evaluate a character, you're underestimating its worth. When characters are in similar circumstances/ environments, it can indicate a relative proximity.
There is a reason Shanks, Kaido and Big Mom's bounties are near 4 billions (established rulers in the New World)
A reason most commanders are near a billion. Hence why Oda often relates it to strength.



When Oda uses bounties like that sometimes, you simply can't qualify it as " a fun Wumbo number", while basing your understanding on isolated feats only , God forbid if Luffy is involved (the Guy tanked an attack from Full Zoan Sengoku pre time skip during the war....). Everything comes into play.....

I made no attempt to obscure the fact that my example with Cracker was indeed speculation. Very mild speculation because the argument concerning the misleading epithet + inaccurate poster was simple, and compounds with Cracker's showings relative to Smoothie's. It's a relevant example of a feasible post-skip failing of bounties to indicate omniscient assessment of a character's strength level.
As long as we agree that it's speculation.
What you consider as very mild is not necessarly the case for others.

Obviously, anyone can and surely will continue using bounties as power-levels, but it's a silly action to me and makes for increasingly shitty arguments in "vs" discourse.
Strawman.
Once again i am yet to see a sane reader, simply claim that character X is stronger than character Y solely because of a Bounty......
It is an element that has to be interpreted obviously.
Once again everything needs to be taken into account when evaluating these characters.
You're highlighting the limits of those bounties, titles and rankings, but fail to recognize that feats are anything but absolute.

Chopper's feats shits on Who's Who's, yet they have to be put into perspective, despite a clear advantage in terms of feats, it's purely thanks to hype and portrayal (his bounty, his rank, his interactions with other tobbi ropos, and Chopper's crewmates performances against said tobbi ropos) that we know that WsW is likely stronger.....
Those feats are nice and all, but we all know that plot is the only reason Chopper was not killed by Big Mom or Queen.

1) Sanji can turn fuckin invisible and fly, so he should be able to at least run away efficiently given how much faster he is than Drake. He already had his Ranger Suit on when he meets up with Robin in 936 and we see Drake looking for him.
Fanfic.
You've got a wild imagination i'll give you that.
You're downplaying the feats and using headcanons that clearly contradict the story.
As far as we know Sanji did not use the Raid Suit at Yasuie's execution.

Then Like we've seen with Momo's rescue, the invisibility doesn't automatically apply to the persons he rescues, let alone when there are 3 of them that's how King was able to locate him (Shinobu , Nami and Robin), at no point was it indicated at the public bath that he used invisiblity on Nami, nor Robin, nor Shinobu. Coupled with Hawkins presence..... Speed, reflexes obviously played a role. And in the end he was able to safely escape with 3 persons to protect despite the presence of 2 Supernovas.
In terms of portrayal and feats it is telling , and it impact those three characters interactions and standings.
Sanji was not negatively portrayed comparedbto X Drake, which was obvious at the time, and even more undeniable at this point .

Excuse me if i then question different takes on different feats by the readers ( a phenomenon that applies to me too).
Everything is questionable regarding those characters, titles, bounties..... and feats.
For example i can't agree with your evaluation of x drake vs sanji, just like you disagree with mine.
It wasn't a bad look, which is strengthened by the developments later during the Arc......



2) The main exchanges I was referring to were the direct combat clashes shown from 944, where Sanji's kick does so little to Drake that the marine could have been drawn in the exact same way in a scene where he wasn't being struck; it may as well have not happened, and Drake didn't bother visibly defending at all. Next, 945 sees Sanji attempt to use a Diable Jambe technique on Drake, and he's literally swatted away with Drake's tail. That specifically had a heavy degree of 'oof' when Sanji is known for his COO and speed.
You're focusing on the tree while ignoring the forest, overanalyzing the shit out of this interaction. It was a stalemate.
Same process used by many in the Page 1 VS Sanji clash, where the only moment the tobbi ropo had the upper hand was overwanked.
X Drake was unable to capture Sanji or even prevent him from doing whatever the fuck was his goal in both occasions. Despite using his devil fruit while the cook was in base the last time (you have absolutley no basis supporting the claim that the raid suit was used at Yasuie's execution...... ).
And frankly you're overblowing the shit out of Drake's attacks on Sanji, there was almost no damages inflicted in that skirmish.
Sanji didn't damage the ancient Zoan either, who also failed to inflict any injury to the strawhat, the Vinsmoke succeeded to accomplish his goal each time, i don't see how this can be spinned as an inferiority, specially knowing that while one of the fighter used his fruit, the other was .in base


This is 100% wrong for discussions of strength in hypothetical matchups where the protective veil of plot is erased, per the nature of Battledome sections. Characters here use all their abilities as well as they can in-line with their personalities or mindsets, with the imagined fights unencumbered by convenient lucky power-ups or merciful strokes of probability.
I'm sure you realized that we collectively don't reach the same conclusions once we erase the plot.
That's the whole point, we interpret those feats, and evaluate them differently, just like with the bounties.

I'm talking about actually-good material for threads like this one, aka showings of Sanji's against current opponents that demonstrate increased strength in relevant ways. As of now? Sanji lacks reasonable counters for Parasite, such as ones in line with the performances of Parasite we've seen between Jozu, DR Sanji, & DR Luffy. Sanji lacks devastating techniques like Gamma Knife or King Kong Gun. Sanji lacks general physical force comparable to DR G4. Sanji also lacks speed on the level of DR G4. When that character gets more things articulated in the canon story, then I can rationalize a non-plot-protected Sanji prevailing over a DD unimpeded by that same plot. Until then, such a restricted Sanji without the fruits of his upcoming advancement doesn't get a victory nod from me here, when I didn't see unrestricted Sanji as prevailing in the first place.

What you consider as "actually-good material" is not an opinion necessarly shared by another participant, that's the whole point of those debates.

I personally think that Doflamingo is underestimated, i can understand someone arguing on behalf of the former shichibukai in this match up, it's close enough, specially with awakening.

However the double standard is funny since you're acting like plot did not explain how easily the strawhats was handled on Dressrosa, he had to throw himself between Doflamingo and his ship/the weakest nakamas, had no intel regarding Doffy's abilities and was used as an hype tool.
No one can claim that Doflamingo wasn't stronger than Sanji at the time, since the shichibukai displayed superiority over Law and Luffy himself, however neglecting that in this encounter the Straw hat had to try to protect bystanders against a stronger foe is intellectually dishonest.
To go back on XDrake performance against Sanji, it's quite useful to use Doflamingo feat. With "hostage" to protect in both cases, it's obvious for any unbiased reader to see what actual domination looks like.


Based on the actual feats displayed by Base Sanji currently, even before the awakening of his lineage factors, it's a fair match up/question.
The cook is stil fighting despite having to deal with both calamities for a brief moment, he was obviously overpowered, yet who can seriously deny the stats boost when comparing his performance against Doflamingo alone in Dressrosa, in similar circumstances.
He's way stronger, strong enough to make this a legitimate conversation.
Doflamingo neutralized him in mere seconds, King and Queen failed to do so......in base.

I've seen Queen aka the cyborg, the ancient Zoan use CoA hardening to protect himself against Sanji's diable jambe assault, who in his right mind would claim that Doffy could still handle this with his coat without hardening?

:kobe

Personally i think it would .be close with Sanji in base.
However we can now safely say that Sanji is significantly stronger than Doflamingo at full strength, a predictible fact denied until recently.....
 
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Seraphoenix

Withering away
Aokiji said multiple admirals must be allocated to take out Doflamingo. He planned on taking out Fujitora, despite seeing what admirals are capable of at MF.

People saying the cook mid diffs are delusional. Luffy with superior firepower in G4 couldn't mid diff Mingo.

Base Sanji gets body bagged.
 

Sir Curlyhat

Well-Known Member
Aokiji said multiple admirals must be allocated to take out Doflamingo. He planned on taking out Fujitora, despite seeing what admirals are capable of at MF.

People saying the cook mid diffs are delusional. Luffy with superior firepower in G4 couldn't mid diff Mingo.

Base Sanji gets body bagged.

To be fair, the Marines really don't have much middle way between Admirals and Vice Admirals with the Garp caliber ones retired :haha

One of the stronger Marine Vice Admirals was Doffy's subordinate, and with Doffy's connection with Kaido and the potential support he could get, as well as the impact it could have on Dressrosa if they send a fighting force that can't quickly overwhelm and contain Doflamingo and his men, sending Admirals as the leading force instead of Vice Admirals makes the most sense.
 

Strobacaxi

Well Known Member
Aokiji said multiple admirals must be allocated to take out Doflamingo.
That's a gross misunderstanding. Admirals needed to be allocated to take care of everything around DD, not DD himself. DD was a king, with known connections to a Yonko. Aokiji wrecked DD easily lol
Also, VAs are clearly not enough, so there's not much else to send except an admiral

He planned on taking out Fujitora, despite seeing what admirals are capable of at MF.
He also planned on being PK lol
 

Mylesime

Well-Known Member
That's a gross misunderstanding. Admirals needed to be allocated to take care of everything around DD, not DD himself. DD was a king, with known connections to a Yonko. Aokiji wrecked DD easily lol
Also, VAs are clearly not enough, so there's not much else to send except an admiral
This.
The developments afterward showed exactly why an admiral was mandatory.
Jack reacted and acted in order to free Doflamingo before he was jailed at Impel down. Fujitora and Sengoku sank his fleet.
Only an admiral in the NAVY can handle this type of mission with the guarantee of success.
 
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Seraphoenix

Withering away
To be fair, the Marines really don't have much middle way between Admirals and Vice Admirals with the Garp caliber ones retired :haha

One of the stronger Marine Vice Admirals was Doffy's subordinate, and with Doffy's connection with Kaido and the potential support he could get, as well as the impact it could have on Dressrosa if they send a fighting force that can't quickly overwhelm and contain Doflamingo and his men, sending Admirals as the leading force instead of Vice Admirals makes the most sense.
While there is a big gap, if base Sanji is mid diffing Doflamingo as so many are saying here, then what does an admiral do? Does he low diff or neg diff Mingo? If that's the case, then Aokiji would not have said more than one admiral should be sent. If the strongest person on the opposition gets low or neg diffed, then you wouldn't need more than one of the person who can do the low or neg diffing.

We are even shown that a former Fleet admiral and Tsuru were also sent to supplement Fujitora's forces. So the narrative that base Sanji is mid diffing someone the marines take so seriously is delusional. Unless someone wants to tell me base Sanji is admiral level. Suits me fine tbh :lmao


That's a gross misunderstanding. Admirals needed to be allocated to take care of everything around DD, not DD himself. DD was a king, with known connections to a Yonko. Aokiji wrecked DD easily lol
Also, VAs are clearly not enough, so there's not much else to send except an admiral


He also planned on being PK lol
You should not be talking about 'misunderstanding' anything. Aokiji was clear that multiple admirals should be sent for Mingo.

Where did Aokiji 'wreck' DD easily? I can't take you seriously when you say stupid shit like this.
 

GilDLax

Well-Known Member
Sanji has no ''self-power-up'' since Dresrosa, meaning his only power-up is external tool, aka Raid Suit, which he still hates to use which raises the question whether it will really become permanent part of his repertoire or he will just toss it to Usopp and Franky and occasionally use it for utility.

His own so-called base power, also his full power pre-RS, didn't have any chance to improve. He didn't fight shit through out Zou and WCI (Luffy hogged all the good fights to bring his power level to new height). Unless you count fodderizing Sheepshead, kicking Bobbin, dodging Katakuri's mochi, cheap-shotting Oven, all of these tiny skirmishes, enough to power him up. Even fighting Page One is nothing more than a Raid Suit introduction.

I know people are tempted to grant characters power-up just because ''shounen trope: characters improve arc by arc'' but that's lazy thinking. Tropes do exist, but they are not iron-clad rule that all mangaka have to obey and even if a mangaka does employ it in his manga, it doesn't mean you can apply it to all characters and all arcs. An author is free to keep a character's fighting strength the same if it serves his story. You have to look it the actual evidences in the manga to make conlcusion.

Zolo and Sanji literally have had zero chance to improve their fighting post-TS until Wano. They either cruise through without challenge (Zolo, except for vs Fuji) or is used to hype antagonist (Sanji vs Doffy). They didn't have any real just-right challenging fight to push themselves in the same vein as Ennies Lobby fights (vs Jabura and Kaku) until...NOW. Zolo at least had his Rooftop showing but Sanji didn't. So no, I don't see any reason to put non-RS Sanji any more than what he did vs Doffy. Hell, Queen is still not fully serious. So wait until Sanji actually beats Queen after a serious, extended fight to say whether he can beat DD.
 

Sir Curlyhat

Well-Known Member
While there is a big gap, if base Sanji is mid diffing Doflamingo as so many are saying here, then what does an admiral do? Does he low diff or neg diff Mingo? If that's the case, then Aokiji would not have said more than one admiral should be sent. If the strongest person on the opposition gets low or neg diffed, then you wouldn't need more than one of the person who can do the low or neg diffing.

We are even shown that a former Fleet admiral and Tsuru were also sent to supplement Fujitora's forces. So the narrative that base Sanji is mid diffing someone the marines take so seriously is delusional. Unless someone wants to tell me base Sanji is admiral level. Suits me fine tbh :lmao


Well the situation is more complicated than taking on an opponent on a battlefield




As Aokiji was saying, Doflamingo is a unique case, even beyond the fact that he get's to rule over a country the way Boa does. Doflamingo's most dangerous because of the information he holds over the Celestial Dragons about their National Treasure, and so taking action against him means that there has to be 0% chance of that information getting out.

You can't afford Doflamingo to flee or have one of his men flee with that information.

When the Celestial Dragons are involved, the Admirals can get mobilized by them even on trivial matters, so when there's such a threat to their overall security, it's no wonder that said threat will be handled in such a manner.


I'm not saying this to argue that base Sanji mid diffs Doffy though. I'm having a hard time gauging base Sanji at this point so i'm not confident in making strong claims about him, and with Doffy as well there's some room to argue about his standing.
 
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