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5 Edo Hiruzen vs Gokage

ATastyMuffin

Kanye's Biggest Fan
Why do you think Kabuto was lying or wrong (including Orochimaru) 🤔
Kabuto wasn't lying

He was just referring to prime Hiruzen

The verbiage, I believe, is that Hiruzen had the REPUTATION of being the strongest amongst the Gokage, AKA in his prime. Old Hiruzen obviously doesn't live up to his glory days, since Orochimaru and even his own guards were shocked at the sight of him struggle to make clones

Prime Hiruzen > individual Gokage > old Hiruzen

_________________________________________

Anyways, backpack combo neg-diff
Super Jinton neg-diff
Super acid mist neg-diff
 

dabi

Well-Known Member
Quoting this post from an earlier topic I commented on:
Assuming they all have sealing tags:

There is no evidence to suggest that Hiruzen can tell the difference between clones and the real thing, so Onoki makes 5 rock clones to prevent the Enma staff from hitting his real body. Hiruzen's 5 element combo is blocked by Onoki's stone shield (given that it was able to partially block Madara's susanoo strike):


Additionally, Hiruzen has no counter to Jinton, and if he gets hit once, it's over for him.

Enma would also be destroyed by Jinton if it hits him, as even the Kusanagi sword was able to hurt him.

Onoki low diff, maybe mid at max.


Tsunade summons Katsuyu in the battlefield, as Hiruzen summons Enma.

If Hiruzen goes for his 5 element combo, Tsunade just regenerates from it via Byakugou seal. If Hiruzen uses the enma staff, then Tsunade just punches it and breaks it in half.

Tsunade eventually gets close to Hiruzen and punches his head, and proceeds to seal him.

Tsunade mid diff.


Ay goes V2 and bashes his head.

Enma staff isn't doing shit to him as he tanked a Chidori to the stomach.

Ay low diff.


Gaara's sand shields will be able to block Hiruzen's 5 element combo given that they also blocked Susanoo slashes (when he shielded Mei from the clones).

If Hiruzen uses Enma staff then Gaara buries it in sand and either crushes it (if he's able to) or moves it towards Hiruzen and buries him.

He then proceeds to seal him.

Gaara should high diff.


Mei's acid mist was able to melt Susanoo:


So it should be able to melt Enma staff, too, as Susanoo's durability is >> than Enma staff (given that Enma was injured by the Kusanagi sword while in staff form).

The mist would also hide her from attacks, so Hiruzen won't know where to fire his 5 element combo. Eventually, he overheats and his skin melts off, allowing Mei to seal him.

Mei high-extreme diff.


In summary, Hiruzen looses every round. Onoki and Ay low diff him, Tsunade wins mid diff, Gaara and Mei win high diff for the reasons I discussed above.
For the reasons I stated here, every one of the Gokage would defeat Hiruzen in a 1v1 fight. Therefore 5 Hiruzens would lose to the 5 kage and eventually get sealed.
 

Reddan

Well-Known Member
Hiruzen stomps. Kishimoto went extra hard to justify all the Hiruzen hype. The only thing retconned was Hashirama.

When all 4 of the Gokage were present and find Yamato, it was Hiruzen doing the most impressive feats and standing out.

Hiruzen is probably one of the worst opponents to put up against the Gokage, because he just knows the perfect counter to their variety.
 

Onda Vital

Well-Known Member
A4 gets amped by Onoki and they get blitzed by Hiruzen TSB dodging speed.

Mei's lava style gets countered by Hiruzen combining 5 elemens and creating TSB which negetas all attacks.

Hiruzen combines water and cement style and turns Gaara's sand into concrete.

Tsunade summons Katsuya but Hiruzen reverse summons Katsuya out of battlefield and drowns her in yomu numa.
 

Shazam

⚡⚡⚡
Kabuto wasn't lying

He was just referring to prime Hiruzen

The verbiage, I believe, is that Hiruzen had the REPUTATION of being the strongest amongst the Gokage, AKA in his prime. Old Hiruzen obviously doesn't live up to his glory days, since Orochimaru and even his own guards were shocked at the sight of him struggle to make clones

Yet his verbiage never hints at his prior years. Not to mention, this isn't old living Hiruzen. It is Edo Hiruzen who many assume him to be similarly to his prime

 

ATastyMuffin

Kanye's Biggest Fan
Yet his verbiage never hints at his prior years. Not to mention, this isn't old living Hiruzen. It is Edo Hiruzen who many assume him to be similarly to his prime

Right there it says the word reputation

REPUTATION

Hiruzen's status as GOAT of the Gokage was well-known, and Oro/Kabuto decided to take him believing he was still that strong

Yet when the actual fight happened, everyone (Oro, Kabuto, AND Hiruzen's guards) were shocked at how much he had declined

That's why Oro says stuff like "I can't believe you jumped in without KBs" or admonishes his sensei for disappointing him, or why the ANBU was real-time commentating on Hiruzen's decreased stamina and inability to perform the techs he easily could when he was younger

It's bc no one knew he got weaker with age. Old Hiruzen doesn't live up to his reputation bc, well, he's old. So that statement doesn't apply to him

The entire reason why Kabuto's saying what he does in that panel is because Oro was complaining about the loss of his arms, and Kabuto replies with that - basically saying they were inviting that level of risk in the first place since they were expecting him to be much stronger
 

Shazam

⚡⚡⚡
Right there it says the word reputation

REPUTATION

Hiruzen's status as GOAT of the Gokage was well-known, and Oro/Kabuto decided to take him believing he was still that strong

Yet when the actual fight happened, everyone (Oro, Kabuto, AND Hiruzen's guards) were shocked at how much he had declined

That's why Oro says stuff like "I can't believe you jumped in without KBs" or admonishes his sensei for disappointing him, or why the ANBU was real-time commentating on Hiruzen's decreased stamina and inability to perform the techs he easily could when he was younger

It's bc no one knew he got weaker with age. Old Hiruzen doesn't live up to his reputation bc, well, he's old. So that statement doesn't apply to him

The entire reason why Kabuto's saying what he does in that panel is because Oro was complaining about the loss of his arms, and Kabuto replies with that - basically saying they were inviting that level of risk in the first place since they were expecting him to be much stronger

I understand old Hiruzen not being at his previous levels, that's why I specifically made this edo Hiruzen. Do you think he's at the same level as his old self?
 

Gulash

Well-Known Member
The entire reason why Kabuto's saying what he does in that panel is because Oro was complaining about the loss of his arms, and Kabuto replies with that - basically saying they were inviting that level of risk in the first place since they were expecting him to be much stronger

Even if he wasnt as strong as Oro thought at the beggining of the battle,at the end he did perform at the level they tought he will.
Cause Oro did lose his arms,so the risk they were expecting actually happened.

You forget the secont part of battle,it seems,where Hiruzen regained his will,sealed hokages like bums,disarmed Oro and almost sealed Oro himself.
 

ATastyMuffin

Kanye's Biggest Fan
I understand old Hiruzen not being at his previous levels, that's why I specifically made this edo Hiruzen. Do you think he's at the same level as his old self?
In terms of chakra capacity and ability to use techs he couldn't when alive, yeah he should be the same as an Edo

Stats wise he's not at the level of his prime self. The Hiruzen that is revived is still old, so his physicals will be as underwhelming as they were in P1

That is to say, being matched in CQC by Orochimaru (who has average-at-best stats)

Bruisers like the Raikages, Sages, Byakugō users, and v2 Jins make short work of him as soon as they close the distance
Even if he wasnt as strong as Oro thought at the beggining of the battle,at the end he did perform at the level they tought he will.
Cause Oro did lose his arms,so the risk they were expecting actually happened.

You forget the secont part of battle,it seems,where Hiruzen regained his will,sealed hokages like bums,disarmed Oro and almost sealed Oro himself.
I didn't forget it

It's just nothing to boast about

Oro could have killed him ten times over with his Edos. That whole time the Darkness genjutsu was active? Hiruzen could have died at any point; Oro was merely dicking around
 

Axiom

Well-Known Member
Putting the battle in a desert only tilts this further in the Gokage's favor. The only chance Hiruzen has to push them to any sort of degree of difficulty is having each Hiruzen summon KBs, then he can 5 on 1 each Kage individually just like Madara's wood clones. But the problem is we saw the Gokage canonically counter that with Byakugo-amped Jinton and doing that again here would suffice.
 

wooly Eullerex

i just don't know anymore...
The 25 Hiruzens n 200 enma staffs wins

Eis' head is sandwiched n crushed by 2 staffs after a cl. feint, onoki is batted down n maimed by an extendo'staff, gaara is microwaved by rai'ton: 4-pillar bind, and tsunade is sashimi'd by 37 wind-sh.clone-fūma-shurikens-post adamantine box stunt.
 

Gulash

Well-Known Member
didn't forget it

It's just nothing to boast about

Oro could have killed him ten times over with his Edos. That whole time the Darkness genjutsu was active? Hiruzen could have died at any point; Oro was merely dicking around
And?
Its just in Oros character to dick around.
Point being,you said kabuto mentioned Hiruzens reputetion cause they expected risk.
Risk that actually came in to fruition at the end so...
 

Mithos

The Chosen
Hiruzen is, at worst, around the same level as Tsunade and Onoki, the two strongest of the Five Kage. Therefore, five ET Hiruzen should be collectively stronger than the Five Kage.

In terms of versatility, Hiruzen is one of the few ninja who could outperform the Five Kage in this department. In fact, the manga highlighted how difficult it was for the alliance to counter all five elemental styles at once. Mifune, for example, was alarmed and didn’t think they could counter it at all, despite all the ninja present. Now replicate the alliance-threatening Mini Buddha’s five-element assault, which Hiruzen stalemated, 5x over as there are five copies of ET Hiruzen here. I don’t see how the Five Kage are supposed to deal with this or similar combinations. Since Hiruzen has completely mastered close combat and the art of illusions as well, he really has no weaknesses here.

Hiruzen’s knowledge and intellect should allow him to counter the Five Kages’ attacks and combos with his own. The 5 ET Hiruzen win.
 

Ludi

ZEHAHAHA
Was this topic ET Hiruzen the whole time? :catthinks

5 old Hiruzen would lose. 5 ET Hiruzen might actually win with backpack restricted
 

ATastyMuffin

Kanye's Biggest Fan
And?
Its just in Oros character to dick around.
Point being,you said kabuto mentioned Hiruzens reputetion cause they expected risk.
Risk that actually came in to fruition at the end so...
I'm saying I'm not just going to give Hiruzen credit for almost beating Oro just because the latter was cheesing basically the whole fight and basically allowed him to prep and use RDS on him

Oro had him at his mercy at multiple points during the fight, shit wasn't serious
 

J★J♥

Vento Aureo
I'm saying I'm not just going to give Hiruzen credit for almost beating Oro just because the latter was cheesing basically the whole fight and basically allowed him to prep and use RDS on him

Oro had him at his mercy at multiple points during the fight, shit wasn't serious
That's simply not true.
 

Gulash

Well-Known Member
I'm saying I'm not just going to give Hiruzen credit for almost beating Oro just because the latter was cheesing basically the whole fight and basically allowed him to prep and use RDS on him

Oro had him at his mercy at multiple points during the fight, shit wasn't serious
He never allowed him to use rds on him.
 
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